Visiting grad schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>The professor that calls a friend in a PhD program to tell them about how great a student’s research is, doesn’t necessarily need to be a famous prof at Harvard. In many cases, it’s someone at a state school that is doing research in a specific topic that overlaps with the person he/she is calling.</p>

<p>So, the school you go to as undergrad doesn’t matter as much and many people think. Quality research, good GREs, etc. come from people in many places. And as mini said, that will only get you through the first cut. After that, it depends on who is on the committee, the quality of other applicants that year, whether they are in a bad mood the day they read your application, etc.</p>

<p>It’s more like a job application than a college application, it’s hard to predict.</p>

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<p>A CC contributor, and MIT PHD, posted a great Grad School Primer on the grad school forums. Its worth reading carefully. </p>

<p>My son did not visit grad schools until he was invited to[ after his applications were accepted] Applying to grad school is like applying for a job- in this case it is with particular professors, instead of your future boss. So the best strategy is to do research or what ever will make your application stand out, ask profs to send LOR’s on your behalf, take the GRE, send in your application, then wait. The time to visit is when they have indicated they want to meet you.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/348756-graduate-school-admissions-101-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/348756-graduate-school-admissions-101-a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I know that music is a unique situation, but D never requested a meeting until she had established her potential within each program through correspondence and phone calls. Do grad student applicants really just “show up”?</p>

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<p>D. is at Med. School. No visiting before interview. Interviews were her visiting. There was no point of visiting when you do not know if you get in or not. However, at the end when she was deciding between 2 schools, she went to Second Look event at both, after which her preference flipped. She is at school that she has chosen after Second Look.</p>

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<p>

This is highly field dependent. When I was applying to graduate school, every single professor I contacted strongly encouraged me to visit campus in the fall to meet the professors and grad students. </p>

<p>Graduate programs in the humanities tend to be both more selective and far more cash-strapped than those in the sciences and sometimes the social sciences. Of all the schools I was admitted to, only two (Brown and Michigan) brought me on campus for an interview, though Yale did a phone interview. If a professor encourages you to visit, I would definitely go for it; at the very least you can check out the department and facilities. </p>

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I think this one is school dependent. Brown interviews about 3 times as many applicants as it plans to admit. It has the money and resources and can afford it. Michigan, on the other hand, admitted all but a few of the students it interviewed. </p>

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In one sense, there’s really not much difference. Applying to graduate programs requires a sense of “fit” with a program, and often that is not readily apparent until you visit. I absolutely loved Brown on paper – it had good research in my area, professors with similar interests, good funding, etc. When I interviewed, I immediately struck it from my list. I really liked the grad students in the program, but I simply did not click with most of the faculty at all. </p>

<p>Applying to graduate school is extraordinarily expensive, and PhD programs expect you to invest 5-8+ years of your life. If visiting would help one narrow down a list, and if the professors encourage it, I think it’s a great idea.</p>

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<p>The difference between a PhD and undergrad is that the former is much more like a “job.” So it’s less about fit (I disagree with you there), and more about going to the highest rank program that funds you and that will allow you to get an academic job in 4-6 years. In other words, you should go to the program with the best placement record. This is specially in the humanities.</p>

<p>Yes, applying to graduate school is expensive, but not as much as airfare and hotels (I think the most expensive application I have seen to a PhD was 100 dollars). Apply as broadly as you can (maybe the top 15-20 schools in your field) with the money you saved from visiting a graduate school before admission when visiting won’t make you get accepted.</p>

<p>As a professor (and I hang out weekly with other professors from humanities, sciences, and social sciences) I can tell you that we all agree on this issue (I just asked some of my friends during lunch). But maybe your profs. were the exception.</p>

<p>In any case, going back to the OP question: Grad school visits before admission are extremely rare and not always viewed positively. If you son or daughter is going to visit anyway, don’t go with them, it will look unprofessional (imagine your daughter has an interview at a company and you go with her, it’s looks unprofessional).</p>

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<p>Let me first just state that norms vary by field so I can only tell you about mine, which is actually at the intersection of 3 disciplines Oops- must add I just crossed posted with Salander, but you’ll see we are saying a lot of the same things!</p>

<p>In our field, it is not typical for prospective students to visit us before hearing about their application. It isn’t a good use of their time (or ours) unless they are at least short-listed. Depending upon school calibre, the ratio is about 3-5 students chosen per year from 100-1000 applications (though a much smaller set of those applications are truly competitive). Sometimes we get requests, if someone happens to be in the area, but it can be hard to get faculty motivated to meet with someone whose file they haven’t seen (and even then, an applicant’s attractiveness in a given year depends a lot on what the other applicants look like). </p>

<p>If there is a faculty member you really want to work with, you might want to just communicate with them via email and maybe then throw out the question at some point of whether it would be worthwhile or not for you to visit. Being on the radar of that particular faculty member, or even better, the faculty member knowing you, can definitely help (but only if you are a very competitive candidate to begin with and it helps you to stand out from similar competitive others). </p>

<p>It can often make more sense for students to attend conferences in one’s field and try to meet there with faculty they may be interested in working with. Ideally introduced through faculty they are working with in undergrad or masters, and ideally over time, not just before apps are due. </p>

<p>Most of the strong programs in my field will fly in prospective students they really like (either before making an offer, or after, depending upon the strategy). We for example, now aim to fly our shortlisted students in during the same time period so they can also meet each other. Schools with decent financial support for their PhD programs find flying prospective students in to be a very good use of funds. </p>

<p>I can not imagine parents being visible for any of this process. Parents might go along for the company or fun of it, especially if you enjoy visiting campuses or those particular cities! BUT we faculty would never know the parents are in tow. I think it could work to the student’s disadvantage as it would be considered unusual and we might question the maturity and independence of the applicant (important attributes for success in a PhD program). </p>

<p>One way to think about visiting graduate programs is to think of it less like a college to visit, and more like a potential place of employment. As a grad student, you are in a sense being hired and paid to join the program.</p>

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<p>Just to add to what alh said, in my field, it helps a TON to have research experience, conference papers, and publications if possible. But no one cares or is impressed if you took graduate level course work. </p>

<p>I also agree with Salander that people overrate the quality of school. It most definitely doesn’t have to be Harvard, or top “x” at all! If an applicant is working with someone I’ve worked with, or someone whose research I have a lot of respect for, and that person gives me trustworthy details about the potential abilities of the applicant, that will be what we focus on. If my colleague at State U says “hey take a close look at this person, they are really exceptional” and all the rest lines up with that (GPA, GRE, etc), we get excited. This has always been true at the schools I’ve worked at (even at the very top school in my field in which I was a faculty member).</p>

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<p>Well, as far as Med. School goes, most people agree that name of UG is almost irrelevant.</p>

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<p>OP: I withdraw any and all advice - except that your kid follow the advice of his or her professors. :slight_smile: Again - Good Luck!</p>

<p>I agree with salander that a potential grad student should spread a wide net and accept the best offer, but also agree with Warblersrule that it may be useful to meet in advance the prof/profs you intend to work with and be sure it seems “workable.” I know more than one person who has had to change programs for this reason. … and that is not a position anyone wants to be in!</p>

<p>Mini talks about his D being the only one accepted into her program without an MA and that all those MA’s will start at the beginning all over again in the PhD program. One way to compete with MA students is to have already done as much or more coursework than them, in addition to a piece of writing equivalent to a masters thesis. So, although, it doesn’t matter in starbright’s program, it will matter very much in some fields, where a student applying directly from UG is at a disadvantage. </p>

<p>this may be a matter of apples and oranges?</p>

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<p>I know that when my oldest son was considering applying to graduate programs, he understood that a lot of the decisions considered more than the paper within the application files…a lot of it was calls from a professor in your corner to his colleague(s) at a program to which he was interested in applying. A “cold” applicant doesn’t have much of a chance at the top programs.</p>

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<p>I think you raise an excellent point. Although rightly it may vary a lot from field to field, what I see in my field (really 3 fields) is no one cares if you took grad courses or not (seems like a big deal when you are a UG, but looking down from a faculty perspective, it seems trivial). In my field, students come in with UGs or Masters, but aren’t selected on the basis of prior coursework. And because students come in with such variable backgrounds/abilities, schools like students to retake their own coursework…there are big differences at the outset but it all evens out in the end.</p>

<p>I would never encourage an undergrad student to do graduate level coursework. Better to spend that time doing research. The exception being if the students wants to get a better sense of what graduate school is like and if going into academia is right for them (it gives them some flavour). But I don’t see it helping applications.</p>

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<p>I think having connections helps hugely, but I absolutely disagree that a cold applicant doesn’t have much of a chance at top programs. I simply can’t imagine a field in which all the profs are calling one another and engaging in some kind of graduate student auction. Gosh who even uses the phone now? Lol. Sure it helps if there is a call or personal email, but most often we rely on letters…everyone writes and reads letters. No one is applying to graduate school without letters of recommendation.</p>

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<p>I would have no way of knowing whether there is an “auction”, but I do know that the professors in my d’;s particular field (which is small) all know each other very well, and they all (well, some - I can’t say all 'cause I don’t know) knew where she ended up. If five top programs take the same candidate in a small field, four of them will end up without an attendee, a research assistant, a TA, or someone needed for another task or assignment (which, in my d’s case, was the critical factor in admission.)</p>

<p>Oddly enough, the one program she attends is the one where she DIDN’T speak to the prof (who is also department chair) in advance, and the one who, it turned out, particularly needed her.</p>

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<p>It must be different for fields. The worm is in STEM field. Applications sent in Dec. and then schools ask for visit or phone conference call. All but MIT offered 2 visit dates. Schools wine & dine, but also interview. Some of these interviews are tough (often 6-8 in a day). Hardest of all was traveling across country every weekend, and getting stuck in 3 snowstorms (old thread on that.) I think if 750 people applied to the program, about 25-30 would be invited to interview, and about half offered a place.</p>

<p>Son offered a spot shortly after first interview, so cancelled several others. He often met the same people at various interviews. His current rm/mt is someone he met during these weekends.</p>

<p>I think mini’s dtr is just exceptional. For sure, the worm had no clue if and where he’d be accepted, so sent out many applications. He did know someone who only applied to 2 or 3 schools.</p>

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<p>My d. had no clue about acceptance, sent in 12 applications I think, and got rejected by at least half of them. As I mentioned, she ended up where she did because of the program’s particular, specific, and unique needs for a student with her particular skills in that particular year. In another year, even at the same school, that might not have held. (Anyone who wants details can PM me.)</p>

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<p>I guess I was responding to Boysx3’ comment about having to have pull. Starbright and Menloparkmom stated the process as I know it. Mini, it did sound as tho your DD was verbally admitted prior to the interviews. </p>

<p>Meanwhile, please keep posting about your travels.</p>

<p>And MenloPM, your son is certainly studying a timely field!</p>

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<p>I do believe (but I don’t know) STEMs are entirely different from the Humanities. For one thing, many students PAY for their graduate education rather than being paid. For Ph.Ds., in many fields, one might be expected to pay for the first two years, while the candidates are culled. Furthermore, I would think (I’m ignorant here) that the majority of graduates don’t end up as professors? So it is less like they are joining a very small club.</p>

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<p>I’m 20 years away from academia, so have small sample size. The worm and his friends only applied to PhD programs, where funding was expected. Plan B would be for MS in CS or engineering, which may not have been funded. Stanford, for example, takes many more students into MS programs, and the best of these may move forward to PhD.</p>

<p>The worm would love to enter academia, but he’s unsure if he has “the stuff”. He’s seen many postdocs have to relocate for many years, and he thinks this would be awful for a family. Even as first year grad students, his peers are aware of the difficulty of obtaining postdoc positions and tenure.</p>

<p>I think we need an old-timers thread.</p>

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<p>I don’t have much to add except that I don’t think that the profs compare their applicants and decide who to accept based on who else is accepting, as mini speculated. If that were the case, my Dd would not have been accepted into all three of the top programs where she applied. I think that each candidate has a unique background that may fit some programs certain years better than others, and this fit is what makes the difference. School A may have loved mini’s daughter, but just didn’t have a spot that particular year for her specific strength. As he mentioned, if she applied in a different year, her results may have been different.</p>

<pre><code>My advice to prospective grad students is to listen to the advice of your mentoring professor. And if you don’t have a mentoring professor, get one. Dd only applied to three schools because her mentoring prof lead her to them based on his knowledge of their fit with her background. Had she applied to other schools that weren’t on his "best fit list’, she probably would not have been admitted. The profs do all know one another in their respective fields, and they try to match their students up with appropriate programs. I don’t think they engage in “horse trading,” but they do know their business. Trust their expertise.

And no, parents should not “be seen” if they accompany their student on a visit, and how important visits are varies from school to school, from my Dd’s experience. It never hurts to email a prof you’re interested in working with, and ask. But don’t just show up.
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