Visits and lessons

College Majors Music Major
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<p>This process can be almost as hard on the parents as it is on the kids. At some point you have to sit back, trust that your child will do well in at least some of their auditions and let them handle it.</p>

<p>One of the coping mechanisms I used was to consider the worst that could happen - daughter gets no acceptances at all. Well, that actually happened a couple of years back to a kid on CC. He was distraught for a few days, but then pulled himself together. He took a gap year, worked on his playing, reapplied the next year, got accepted to an excellent school and wrote a glowing post about how the whole experience had made him a far better musician and person. (I am terrible with names and cannot find the reference without them. Anyone remember the name of the person I am talking about? Please help us dig up the relevant posts.)</p>

<p>This is only an all-or-nothing experience if you make it one. There are a lot of musicians out there, both professionals and amateurs, who have never set foot on a college campus. I have to admit that very few of them have a job with a major symphony, but that doesn't happen for most conservatory grads either.</p>

<p>Bottom line: Give your kid as much support as you can, but turn over the responsibility and the credit to them. Otherwise you will both burn out before the first audition.</p>

22

<p>I think the process is actually harder on the parents. BassDad is right. Auditioning is not all or nothing. There are plenty of good music schools which are not that difficult for admissions.</p>

23

<p>The thread BassDad is referring to is: No Acceptances: One Kid's Story - A year later..., on the Parent's Forum. He was a pianist -- as I recall, after his gap year, he won a performance scholarship at Brandeis, but ultimately opted for MIT.<br>
One option if the auditions don't work out is attending a good college with a music program, participating in youth orchestras through college (many let you continue until you are 22), practicing a lot with a good teacher, and hoping to transfer at some point if music performance is still the choice. A reason not to let the high school grades plummet.</p>

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<p>Thanks, mamenyu. That was indeed the one I meant. The thread is at </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=192395%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=192395&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>and is well worth a look by the current crop of aspiring music majors and their parents.</p>

25

<p>As always good thoughts from everyone.</p>

<p>Allmusic, as I asked a few days ago, is a safety school really a safety if you have to audition? And a few other questions along those lines. So I know your concerns.</p>

<p>Shennie how do you recommend asking a professor after a sample lesson to give you an evaluation? I have been in that situation before mainly with summer program profesors, etc. And found it very difficult to get an answer that was helpful. Usually its just the normal compliments but nothing that would actually let you know if you need to set up an audition at Julliard, SuperState U, or Paduka communtiy college.</p>

<p>Binx you were fortunate to know something in middle school about your childs future path. My Daughter had done nothing musical until then and it took her most of middle school to start to see how much she liked it and how good she was becoming and that she was flying past people that had played twice as long. But even though she had passed the local crowd, music school was not even on our radar until high school. It really wasnt until 10th grade when her private teacher started talking about looking at conservatories or top music universities that we had any idea what we might be in for. Even with all that, it is still "we really wont know for another year just how good she will be and which schools to apply for because there are so many great flute players floating around".</p>

<p>One of the things that does give me more hope is that I have been at honors band and youth orchestra auditions and heard other kids play. My main observance has been why are some of these kids here and why are some kids we know are better than them not here? Just like many top students don't try out for honors or YO positions some will not choose to go school for performance. And some that have no business trying will make up some of the competition.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
One of the coping mechanisms I used was to consider the worst that could happen

[/quote]

Bassdad, this is EXACTLY what we did. In our case, we were living in Germany at the time, where a number of great horn players/teachers live, so S decided that, if he didn't get into his top choices, he would take a year off and study with some really great teachers. That was his safety. We had it planned out ahead of time, and it was something he could be really excited about. He reached a point when he was considering schools, that he would say, "I'd rather be in Germany than go here for a year." That helped us keep his list short, because he had a viable alternative.</p>

<p>I realize the uniqueness of the situation, but I do think a musician's "safety" can be something along those lines, and doesn't have to be a college situation. Yes, there are schools where you can get in without audition. Your research and trial lessons and such need to determine if your particular safety is really one that will make you a better musician. A year in the wrong place doesn't help anybody. (Don't mean to throw more wrinkles into it.) </p>

<p>Maybe Thumper will get on here and tell how her son spent the summer, when he didn't get into the summer program he wanted. That is exactly the kind of safety I'm talking about. </p>

<p>The thread referenced above (by "Andi") wasn't specifically about a musician; he was a talented pianist, but wasn't intending on a music major. But the lesson musician parents can take away is that a year off can be used to advantage.</p>

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<p>My husband and I have discussed the "safety" option at length with our son. His list is short...only four-five schools at the moment. He isn't interested in going "just anywhere" with a music program, even if it was more of a shoe-in type of situation. I suspect there are plenty of places he would get in without any problem. They just don't happen to be places he wants to go.</p>

<p>The "safety" choices, here in Boston, are still attractive enough (although not the living at home part) that I think he would prefer that to some of the alternatives...but we shall see how that gels as the year progresses. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, or fortunately (and I really am not sure which) my son tends to have no shortage of either optimism or confidence, and is quite certain everything will work out just as he hopes. I am not quite so sanguine, but love that quality about him anyway.</p>

28

<p>Life is harder for those who sing soprano or play a highly competitive instrument like flute, violin or cello. I have seen a couple of different approaches used successfully in these cases.</p>

<p>1) The "all the eggs in one basket" approach. The student applies to a handful of top programs reasoning that if they do not get into one of them then going to a second tier or lower music school is not worth their time and money. Their backup plan is often waiting a year and trying again, either by taking a gap year or by going to a school where they can get some of the music history, freshman writing, secondary piano and any other non-musical requirements out of the way.</p>

<p>2) The "keep all your options open" approach. The student applies to a large number of programs (say 10 to 15) spread widely in terms of admission chances with an intention to actually audition at around six of them. They use the results of the preliminary taped rounds and the earlier live auditions to help them decide which applications to abandon. They may also apply to some no-audition schools with the intent of transferring later if they have to. </p>

<p>As others have pointed out, it is hard to find a true safety school when auditions are involved. The principal is that, for every Curtis or Juilliard on the list, you also have your local state university and a couple of lesser known schools that have a decent but not top-10 instructor on your instrument. Include a couple of places with early auditions (e.g. Oberlin's Early Review that could give you an admissions DECISION in December and schools like West Chester or Shenandoah that hold auditions starting in November). </p>

<p>A few more tips: Audition requirements may give you some information about the average level that the school expects of applicants - you probably have a better shot at places that require pieces you find easy to play than at places that require much harder pieces. Some schools accept applications into January, so you can have the paperwork filled out and ready to go for a second round if you find you have aimed too high or too low in the early going. If you decide to take this approach, be prepared to spend a lot of money on application fees and to really butter up the guidance counsellor at your high school.</p>

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<p>FluteMomLiz: </p>

<p>We have found professors to be extremely honest as to chances when we arranged lessons at the individual schools during the junior year. Many of them also asked about other schools we intended to apply to and they gave their opinions as to whether or not these were appropriate, as well as making other suggestions based on the level and style of play of my DD. Never once did we feel that professors were telling us what "we wanted to hear." We felt that all their input was frank and had value.</p>

<p>One professor remarked, "You wouldn't get in if you auditioned today, but work on this and there should be no problem." D worked on that and nailed it during her audition and got in, so their advice and input is important.</p>

<p>Of course, as you and all of us agonize over, "One student's safety is another student's dream," so the planning becomes crucial. Bottom line is that private instructors, orchestra/band directors, and any college professors you have lessons with are the primary source of reliable "how good is my kid" data. Unless a parent is an extremely accomplished amateur musician or a professional, their "opinion" of child's ability usually has too much bias. You need unbiased opinions to help ground you in this whole process.</p>

<p>Additionally, if your child is in any state regional, district, all-state ensembles, he/she has probably been or will be "recruited" by some of the directors there. D had multiple instances where directors who were college profs were far from bashful in asking her to apply to their schools as she interacted with them with different ensembles. These type interactions may be the good basis for a safety list.</p>

<p>Don't sweat it. Get a good grounding as where in the musical realm your child resides and then you can make a well-thought out list of potential stretches, should get into and safeties. Then start visiting and refine the list. </p>

<p>Zep</p>

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<p>Even parents who are accomplished amateurs or professional musicians can make major misjudgments when it comes to their own children. Sometimes their bias goes one way and sometimes the other, but it is still a much better idea for them to get informed outside opinions as Zep says.</p>

31

<p>If I had it all to do over again, I'd be more relaxed about the process rather than less relaxed. A true safety might have helped. (And I really didn't realize that D didn't have one!) D took a lesson with an up-and-coming teacher at a state university where she would have been easily accepted and been given a full scholarship and then some. She decided not to apply there. On the one hand, why apply someplace she didn't really want to go. It seems absurd and expensive that so many kids apply/audition at so many schools they'd never go to. On the other hand, just knowing that this was a real possibility (and where she could have actually gotten a couple of cost-free years of experience for re-auditions and credits toward graduation) would have taken some of the pressure off of the other auditions/applications, and perhaps opened up other opportunities. (And don't make the mistake that we did, that just because someone says they would accept someone into a studio at a lesson, etc, means that they are "in" and now this particular situation is a "safety." All of that can change quickly depending on who auditions, even if the student is theoretically a candidate for admission. And the other mistake: a safety also means a financial safety if you need significant financial aid. It doesn't matter if they're in at a major school/studio if you can't afford it.)</p>

<p>D ended up not being accepted at her first choice school, and that was disappointing. But her second choice has become for her not only first-choice, but the best imaginable situation. It can be helpful to remember that finding a "good school" is only part of the issue. The other part of it is making the best of whatever situation one finds oneself within. One can be in a "perfect" situation and be miserable and unproductive for all sorts of reasons. Or one can become a fine, well-rounded, happy, and even employed musician from a less than perfect situation. Successful matriculation to a first-choice top-tier school does not necessarily determine any specific outcome or our child's eventual well-being, despite the rhetoric of our rather consumerist educational climate and our own desires to set things up "perfectly" for our children. Sometimes it's much more helpful in the long run for things to not be so perfectly put in place for them, and for them to develop character as they work through disappointments, create their own opportunities, etc. </p>

<p>Just my thoughts post-process. Your mileage may vary.</p>

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<p>I have kind of come to the conclusion that doing something like BassDad's option #2 makes sense for us. That could change in a month. lol</p>

<p>Zep one of the problems with flute is good enough at playing does not mean there will be a spot at a top school available. Most instruments if you are good enough there will be a spot, might not be your first choice.</p>

<p>So they might say you are good enough to audition for conservatory Z but that doesnt mean one of the other 40 that are good enough will be taken for the 2 openings.</p>

<p>We have been fortunate enough to have some college professors judge her at competitions where she has played college audition level pieces the last year plus and the teachers said she played them well enough to probably win an audition to their schools. But as BassDad mentioned, I am not sure that it is worth being a performance major at a second or third tier school. Tough enough to succeed going to a top school. It is all so confusing.</p>

<p>RainMom I intend on being relaxed about it, but somehow when you get in the middle of it, it does not work out that way.</p>

33

<p>Yes, I can't even begin to think of the disappointment and discouragement should a child be accepted to a school they really want to attend, but cannot attend due to limited finances. It is crucial to set these expectations with your child prior to applying and not after the acceptances have been received.</p>

<p>While going through this process, always heed the College Finance Corollary of Murphy's Law which states:</p>

<p>"When given a list of universities and corresponding financial packages, the child will always migrate to the school with the highest tuition and the lowest financial package."</p>

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<p>Zep, I think that was my first question here when I discovered this place. </p>

<p>If we probably cant afford one of the expensive schools should we even bother looking at it and risk her falling in love with something that cant happen because of money.</p>

<p>Forget which thread it was in but it was a few months back.</p>

<p>And the thought of that happening still haunts me. Be just my luck to get all the arrangements right, have her play great and get accepted and then have to tell her the aid package is too small.</p>

<p>love your Murphy's law college music style</p>

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<p>The answer to your question is personal;, will your child be able to handle the situation saying no to a school that accepted them with little or no financial aid offer? This is a two part question too. As a parent, will you be able to tell them no, not matter how painful that will be? You have to consider what you think these answers are.</p>

<p>When I talk "financial aid," I mean GRANTS. Lots of schools will present you with a financial aid "package" which is solely made up of loans! IMHO that is total BS, but schools do it so they can boast that 95% of our students get some sort of financial aid package! </p>

<p>The financial aid package is a huge variable that you cannot even begin to reliably factor into your application/audition morass. And of course you never know what you'll get until you actually get accepted and have a financial aid package in your hands. </p>

<p>So you need to do some research in this area too. Some general rules of thumb...</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The less popular the instrument, the more likely there's some aid (I know you're cringing FluteMomLiz).</p></li>
<li><p>Some schools are notoriously stingy (Peabody) and some schools give significant grants to all students (Eastman). Check and ask around as you visit the schools.</p></li>
<li><p>The lesser known school will be more likely to offer significant financial aid than the more well-established institutions. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Because of the nebulous nature of this entire area, my recommendation is to clearly set expectations with your child upfront such as, "I know that you like The Dingbat School of Music, but if they don't offer at least 1/2 of the tuition bill as a merit scholarship, we cannot afford to send you there. Do you still want to apply?"</p>

<p>Managing expectations is a critical component, and this topic ties in with others. There are many excellent teachers out there and they aren't necessarily only at the big name schools. Finding a great teacher and school that will help your child develop and thrive isn't necessarily about looking only at schools with familiar names; there are hidden treasures out there that can be had. When you find such a place, there's also a high likelihood that the merit grant money is also more abundant, making it a doubly exciting discovery.</p>

<p>And finally, after they graduate and they're out auditioning, it's their playing, not who granted their diploma, that gets them a job... </p>

<p>BTW, Murphy's Law was validated in my case...</p>

<p>Zep</p>

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<p>I always found we got honest feedback from teachers who my son played for. On the other hand, I never flat out asked them if he would be admitted to their program. I don't think that is a fair question given all the variables. But I did ask if his ability was in the ball park for the schools he was looking at. And they all said yes. I didn't take that as a guarantee, but took consolation in the fact that there was a strong possibility one of the schools would take him. </p>

<p>Son decided that he would only apply to programs that had teachers he wanted to study with. If he was not accepted he would take a year to improve his playing. I think for kids who have a really clear vision of where they want to be, this is a great strategy.</p>

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<p>Thanks Zep, I will put it to my daughter in exactly the way you suggest, sounds very reasonable to me.</p>

<p>Sheenie, with hundreds of programs out there it is impossible to know how good or well a student will get along with Joe Smith of Dingbat school of music. I will bet there are hidden gems a plenty that are great teachers at lessor schools that no one has a good handle on.</p>

<p>Zep, something like 90% of the principal flute players went to one of the big conservatories. Chicken or the egg. Did they go there and get the job because they were so good or get so good because they went to the best school or made the best connections.</p>

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<p>I am not sure it is just the teacher who is important. Lessons are only an hour or so a week. Being around other dedicated and proficient students is equally important.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with Edad. It's the quality of musicianship all the way through the whole program, top down, starting with the teacher, but not ending there.</p>

40

<p>Sheenie to clarify on my post of late last night. I meant it is impossible for us to find about every teacher at every school of the hundreds that offer performance. And that when a big music school loses a teacher, they often replace them with someone from a smaller school. That teacher was good before he got to the major conservatory, but for us to find someone like that and know how good they are seems like an impossible task.</p>

<p>Edad good points when you think about it, an hour lesson a week can not be the only consideration for picking a school.</p>