<p>Yale has by far the strongest visual arts program, particularly in drawing/painting, photography, graphic design, printmaking and sculpture, although it is not very well publicized because it is very small. There is an undergraduate art major with full access to the ultra-prestigious Yale School of Art. </p>
<p>The trick, of course, is getting admitted to Yale, which is the most selective undergraduate program in the United States.</p>
<p>
[quote]
originally posted by posterX</p>
<p>There is an undergraduate art major with full access to the ultra-prestigious Yale School of Art.
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</p>
<p>That may be true, but it still does not put their undergrad major on the level of a RISD or even other art schools which are particularly strong at an undergraduate level. </p>
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[quote]
The trick, of course, is getting admitted to Yale, which is the most selective undergraduate program in the United States.
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</p>
<p>Honestly, an art school (program) is ultimately only as good as its students. </p>
<p>Obviously, when academics are the supreme criteria for admission, Yale or any other top school can hardly be attracting the best art students to their undergraduate program. Managing super high test scores/grades and creating a truly outstanding portfolio is not an easy thing to do and very few are able to do it. </p>
<p>Having gone to a top LAC and seeing how they try to fill up most of their program from the regular pool of kids, I realize that programs full of super bright kids without the necessary artistic talent don't lead to much. Exactly why I disliked their program and am transferring.</p>
<p>Also, I am not really sure what you mean by Yale's visual arts program not being well publicized... At a time not too long ago, I was planning out my grad choices and Yale was at the top of my list for the very reason that they have one of the premier graduate programs in art. Mind you, SAIC/RISD are usually tied with Yale in this regard.</p>
<p>Anyway, I no longer am considering an MFA in fine art. I feel as though I'll probably end up in NY (eye on Columbia) for a graduate degree in film.</p>
<p>College-ish, undergraduate admissions is not just about managing an outstanding portfolio. It's about being an interesting person who's also incredibly talented in some field. And there are incredibly talented artists, who also have the potential to succeed in other areas of study and show leadership ability (in art or something else), who apply to Yale's undergraduate art major in not insignificant numbers. The reputation of Yale specifically in the art area, in which Yale is preeminent in the world, attracts them.</p>
<p>It's a bit like Yale's music program (also one of the best in the country) - you have to be talented to get in but it's not like they are overlooking childhood music prodigies who play for symphony orchestras at the age of 10 just because they don't have perfect SAT scores or some kind of "portfolio."</p>
<p>posterx - the assertion that Yale's undergrad program is 'by far' better than the likes of RISD or Cooper is a stretch - it may be in the same league, but it is not better 'by far.'</p>
<p>Your assertion that Yale is 'the most selective undergraduate program' is provably false. Both the School of Art and the School Architecture at Cooper have lower acceptance rates and higher yields than Yale.</p>
<p>
[quote]
originally posted by posterX</p>
<p>College-ish, undergraduate admissions is not just about managing an outstanding portfolio.
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</p>
<p>I never said that it was just about managing an outstanding portfolio. But for an art student having a "good" portfolio is key to any of the serious programs and you cannot tell me otherwise. </p>
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It's about being an interesting person who's also incredibly talented in some field.
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</p>
<p>Been there done that. You still have not made your case on how Yale attracts any better undergraduate art students than what I indicated in my original post.</p>
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And there are incredibly talented artists, who also have the potential to succeed in other areas of study and show leadership ability (in art or something else), who apply to Yale's undergraduate art major in not insignificant numbers.
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</p>
<p>That does not mean that Yale's undergrad art major is attracting the best art students. </p>
<p>Without offering direct admission to their art major or allowing the portfolio to take precedence during admission, Yale is essentially preferring the super bright likely non-artistic bunch over the bright maybe brighter art students, whose light usually shines brightest in their portfolios.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reputation of Yale specifically in the art area, in which Yale is preeminent in the world, attracts them.
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</p>
<p>Not at an undergraduate level. Haven't you heard RISD scream from every mountaintop that THEY are the preemiment place for art???</p>
<p>Hell, it's quite possible that Yale realizes that their undergrad program isn't all that hot, which is why they have not made the undergrad art major accessible/competitive.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's a bit like Yale's music program (also one of the best in the country) - you have to be talented to get in but it's not like they are overlooking childhood music prodigies who play for symphony orchestras at the age of 10 just because they don't have perfect SAT scores or some kind of "portfolio."
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</p>
<p>Um... I already told you why portfolios matter for VISUAL art students. Even if the kid's doing new media or something with sound... there needs to be some evidence that he really does do what he says he can do or is doing. </p>
<p>Without giving the portfolio its proper place (look above), schools like Yale are simply attracting anything but the top art students. </p>
<p>TH21,</p>
<p>Thanks for replying to the questions I had posed to you earlier...</p>
<p>It was nice to see how your daughter came to decide on Cooper. It sounds like a great choice and I do have some questions for you about your alma mater, but I will save that for a PM.</p>
<p>Nice to see you again and want to say I agree 100% with your dissection of posterX's assertions.</p>
<p>Actually, Yale's undergraduate admissions committee does accept and throughly review art portfolios, often sending them to professors of Art to review, just as it reviews tapes of music performances or scientific papers written by applicants.</p>
<p>You are really making too many assumptions here, that Yale somehow prefers "super bright non artistic" over "artistic." You can be artistic and also be incredibly bright, you know. Even Albert Einstein was an artist. Many famous artists started as math or physics majors. Also, you are assuming that Yale does not consider art portfolios.</p>
<p>Your original statement:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The trick, of course, is getting admitted to Yale, which is the most selective undergraduate program in the United States.
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</p>
<p>No mention of portfolio. No mention of reviewing. Just that Yale's somehow really selective...</p>
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[quote]
You are really making too many assumptions here, that Yale somehow prefers "super bright non artistic" over "artistic." You can be artistic and also be incredibly bright, you know. Even Albert Einstein was an artist. Many famous artists started as math or physics majors. Also, you are assuming that Yale does not consider art portfolios.
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</p>
<p>I never said you cannot be both. I simply said that Yale's undergrad program is not attracting the top art students and it's largely their own fault/choice.</p>
<p>That's all.</p>
<p>My D will be attending MICA, but I feel the need to support PosterX here. It is not ALL about the portfolio: it's about the thoughts and ideas that drive the art that's in the portfolio. It's the passion to create great art. It is possible to succeed academically and artistically. Often it is the same drive.</p>
<p>Everyone talks about "the hook" needed to get into an Ivy. A great art portfolio inspired by ideas and concepts can be that. </p>
<p>Sounds like the same thing Cooper Union is looking for in its home test. And the combination of academics and art instruction led my D to choose MICA.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My D will be attending MICA, but I feel the need to support PosterX here. It is not ALL about the portfolio: it's about the thoughts and ideas that drive the art that's in the portfolio. It's the passion to create great art. It is possible to succeed academically and artistically. Often it is the same drive.
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</p>
<p>Ideas, concepts, and what not are best expressed in a portfolio for ART students and THEN you can talk about it in your artist statement. Btw, I'm all about conceptual art because while I feel aesthetics are important, the concept of the work is what compels me to create.</p>
<p>For examples: <a href="http://www.darbari.blogspot.com%5B/url%5D">http://www.darbari.blogspot.com</a></p>
<p>However, if all we do is talk about great ideas, we're not artists... we're philosophers, theorists, critics, etc... </p>
<p>Lastly, I want to say that passion is of supreme importance for artists. Too often I get the feeling that some parents are trying to force their kids to be creative (or other things) when they'd much rather be doing something else.</p>
<p>College-ish, there are many Yale students who create great work, not just talk about it. </p>
<p>Even after I refuted your argument that Yale focuses on "all around" "smart" but not "artistically talented" students by pointing out that Yale does, indeed, consider art portfolios (slides of actual work), and does, indeed, have an extremely strong undergraduate art program, tied in with the most prestigious fine arts departments in the world, you still haven't given me any legitimate reason directly supporting your belief that Yale does not attract great art students.</p>
<p>
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College-ish, there are many Yale students who create great work, not just talk about it.
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</p>
<p>I wasn't specifically targeting Yale students when I made that statement. I hope you realize that. Gosh.</p>
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Even after I refuted your argument that Yale focuses on "all around" "smart" but not "artistically talented" students by pointing out that Yale does, indeed, consider art portfolios (slides of actual work),
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So they consider portfolios--big deal! Do they attend National Portfolio Days; do they go out of their way to reach qualified art students for their undergrad like a RISD or WashU?</p>
<p>The answer is NO.</p>
<p>
[quote]
and does, indeed, have an extremely strong undergraduate art program, tied in with the most prestigious fine arts departments in the world,
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</p>
<p>Like TH21 said, this is simply your assertion NOT fact. If I haven't stated it clearly enough already, here it is: graduate programs and undergraduate programs are not the same. The quality of programs vary not only from school to school but within institutions, too.</p>
<p>
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haven't given me any legitimate reason directly supporting your belief that Yale does not attract great art students.
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</p>
<p>Yale's undergrad program is not where the best art students are at. RISD, MICA, and other programs have them, because they have the superior undergrad programs. In my estimation, academics are much less likely to trump art at these institutions than at a Yale and that's partly why these schools get the talent.</p>
<p>Sorry if you can't digest it.</p>
<p>While Yale might not make much of an effort to "search out" or "reach" the best art students by going to the high school shows, you have to consider that maybe it doesn't need to. Yale has the lowest acceptance rate of any college or university in the United States.</p>
<p>In fact, there are students who choose to go to Yale and find that just by hanging out in the same building with the graduate students in art - who take classes in the same building as the undergraduates, are highly accomplished artists and represent an ultra-elite cadre of a few selected from literally thousands of applicants around the world - to be more of an education in art than any classes they will ever take. And that's before you even consider what they are learning from the professors, who are of a similar caliber. </p>
<p>I'm not saying it is for everyone - surely there are artists waiting for some admissions rep to "scout" them out from the Scholastic art show - but no matter what way you spin it, Yale has an unparalleled art department. Sorry if you can't digest it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
originally posted by posterX</p>
<p>While Yale might not make much of an effort to "search out" or "reach" the best art students by going to the high school shows, you have to consider that maybe it doesn't need to. Yale has the lowest acceptance rate of any college or university in the United States.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't have to consider anything. You're lucky that I've actually bothered to reply at all after having to read through this crazy talk you've been coming up with to defend Yale. Obviously, you have some sort of fanatical bias toward Yale and are willing to say anything to up its undergrad art program's rep.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In fact, there are students who choose to go to Yale and find that just by hanging out in the same building with the graduate students in art - who take classes in the same building as the undergraduates, are highly accomplished artists and represent an ultra-elite cadre of a few selected from literally thousands of applicants around the world - to be more of an education in art than any classes they will ever take.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Never heard such crap in my life. If everyone was just hanging out, I'm sure the studios would be just bursting with artistic creations.</p>
<p>But on a more serious note, you can't honestly expect me to believe that just hanging out with an Emily Dickinson would make me into one. I'd still actually have to learn how to write lucidly, analyze the world(s), and what not on my own. </p>
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And that's before you even consider what they are learning from the professors, who are of a similar caliber.
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</p>
<p>And ignore the teeming millions of talented art students in the halls of Yale who are just dying to make the unsuspecting undergrad into an artistic god? No way! </p>
<p>
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I'm not saying it is for everyone - surely there are artists waiting for some admissions rep to "scout" them out from the Scholastic art show
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</p>
<p>You make it sound like a bad thing if true talent comes to the surface. I wonder whose mediocrity you're covering up...</p>
<p>
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- but no matter what way you spin it
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</p>
<p>But of course it matters how you spin it!!! And you spin it better than anyone on these forums. For that you deserve a true SPIN-head medal. </p>
<p>You've got a future in this! :rolleyes</p>
<p>I am somewhat familiar with Yale's program. They have a very well regarded program in art. Their are considered top notch in graphic design and painting. HOWEVER, this reputation is for their graduate program only!</p>
<p>I will admit that having a very strong graduate program would seem to also raise the undergraduate program's stature. However, I do not believe this to be the case in art. Yale doesn't require any portfolio for admission. In fact, Yale's reputation is such that they would take a 4.0 student with a decent portfolio over a 3.6 student with a fabulous portfolio all the time, which is not to say that 4.0 students can't have strong portfolio. However, this does mitigate against Yale having the top talent in art and design.</p>
<p>I should note that there are some top notch design schools who do not require portfolios such as University of Cincinnati (UC). UC does, however, have a top notch reputation in design. The theory being that kids with strong academic records are more capable to think "outside of the box" in design. However, even for UC, they do require portfolios ,and consider them strongly in admission, for other artistic majors such as painting or illustration.</p>
<p>Bottom line: when a student comes from Yale and majors in art or graphic design, it won't open the door to design or art jobs as it would with some other design or art schools such as RISD, Pratt, MICA, CMU or UC. etc. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone at PIXAR, for example. They list approved schools where they will interview students for jobs. Yale isn't on the list!</p>
<p>Also ask any graphic design house or ad agency who hires designers. They won't normally consider Yale a top notch place to recruit for art or design, at least for the undergradate side of Yale. </p>
<p>I want to specifically note, however, that Yale's graduate school is very different for Art than its undergraduate reputation. They do require portfolios! In fact, most of their the students who get their MFAs are highly sought after for jobs with universities.</p>
<p>Taxguy, you have come a long way! Suddenly you see the light!</p>
<p>//I should note that there are some top notch design schools who do not require portfolios such as University of Cincinnati (UC). UC does, however, have a top notch reputation in design. The theory being that kids with strong academic records are more capable to think "outside of the box" in design.// TG</p>
<p>Of course, prior to your enlightenment, you pounded SCAD because it did not require portfolios (undergraduate). Shame on you. But there are other reasons as well; students who consistently apply themselves to scholastic matters and perform well as measured by GPA are likely to continue that measure of success; many high schools have significantly cut back on their art programs, some students are at an unfair disadvantage; many of the applied arts can be learned and success is not specifically dependent upon talent.</p>
<p>//I want to specifically note, however, that Yale's graduate school is very different for Art than its undergraduate reputation. They do require portfolios!//</p>
<p>Earth to Taxguy. I'd have to say that ALL graduate programs require portfolios, even SCAD's. Why the exclamation? It's standard operating procedure at the graduate level. There may be a few rogue colleges I haven't heard about, but otherwise no one gets into an MFA/MA program at an art college w/o a portfolio.</p>
<p>[Taxguy]
"I want to specifically note, however, that Yale's graduate school is very different for Art than its undergraduate reputation. They do require portfolios! In fact, most of their the students who get their MFAs are highly sought after for jobs with universities."</p>
<p>~~~~~~~~
took my son over to Purchase College's open house for accepted students yesterday as part of my due diligence to peek under every rock. He had applied and been accepted to their New Media program, which is actually in the arts and sciences division rather than the fine arts division. Anyway, the department is chock full of faculty with MFAs from Yale (as is the Graphic Design faculty), but we were very unimpressed with the program. When I heard about what recent graduates were doing, it wasn't worth investing 4 precious years of one's life there, never mind any money. incredibly lackluster presentation.</p>
<p>Apparently that Yale "magic" has it's limits.</p>
<p>
[quote]
posterx wrote:
Even after I refuted your argument ... you still haven't given me any...
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</p>
<p>posterx, certainly no one is required to respond to every point of debate, but if you are going to call people on not refuting your points, you really should make sure your own house is in order first. You remain silent concerning the points I raise in post #305.</p>
<p>
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posterx wrote:</p>
<p>Yale has the lowest acceptance rate of any college or university in the United States.
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</p>
<p>Your thesis is to compare Yale to art schools, and yet you choose a measure that excludes art schools. This year Yale accepted 8.6% of applicants. The School of Art at Cooper Union accepted 5.0% of applicants. (70 of 1400)</p>
<p>
[quote]
posterx wrote:
but no matter what way you spin it, Yale has an unparalleled art department. Sorry if you can't digest it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You've yet to make that case with any conviction.</p>
<p>RainingAgain, the fact that a few schools or art programs don't require a portfolio doesn't mean that I agree with it! Frankly, I think that Cincinnati would have a lower attrition rate, as would SCAD, if they at least looked at the portfolio and took it into account in the admission's decision. It doesn't have to be 50%,as it is with CMU and some art schools, but it should have some decent weight.</p>
<p>//RainingAgain, the fact that a few schools or art programs don't require a portfolio doesn't mean that I agree with it! Frankly, I think that Cincinnati would have a lower attrition rate, as would SCAD, if they at least looked at the portfolio and took it into account in the admission's decision.//TG</p>
<p>Who the heck ever told you they don't look at portfolios. Why do you presume that because a college doesn't require applicants to submit a portfolio, that the students don't submit them. At SCAD, the applicants were STRONGLY encouraged to submit a portfolio, and the VAST majority did, maybe 98% outside of "Historic Preservation". Also, the portfolios ARE used to evaluate an applicant. You seem to jump to wild conclusions.</p>
<p>Here are some scenarios:</p>
<p>Applicant A: 1400 SAT score, 3.95 GPA, great letters of recommendation, well-written statement of purpose, expresses NO portfolio, expresses an interest in architecture. Accept? YES!</p>
<p>Why? Historically, students with the best incoming GPAs generally leave with the best GPAs, especially in the applied arts.</p>
<p>Applicant B: 1400 SAT score, 3.95 GPA, great letters of recommendation, well-written statement of purpose, expresses NO portfolio, expresses an interest in painting. Accept? YES!</p>
<p>Why accept applicant B since success in painting, a fine art, is more likely predicated upon talent, or artistic aptitude? Because 1. students do not declare a major until the end of their first year. The student will be exposed to over 25 different majors and meet 100s of students in all disciplines. The student will take a year's worth of foundation level courses. The student will very likely find his or her niche, and it very well may not be painting afterall. But given the student's GPA in H.S. and SAT score, it is very very likely the student will discover a discipline that accomodates their interests, aptitudes, and that he/she will have a significant measure of success. Also, the student may have attended a H.S. with a very limited art dept. and may well have not had the opportunity to study painting. </p>
<p>Applicant C: 1000 SAT score, 2.15 GPA, average letters of recommendation, poorly written statement of purpose, FANTASTIC portfolio, uncertain of interest. Accept? YES, but there are concerns.</p>
<p>Since the portfolio is fantastic, the student might well be accepted provisionally, meaning the student must earn a 3.0 GPA their first quarter at the college to remove the provisional status. Two quarters with a GPA less than 3.0 and they are sent home. While the portfolio is indicative of talent, the student may prove to have poor work and study habits which ultimately will lead to poorly accomplished work in a competitive classroom. Talent will only get you so far, you have to have the discipline to apply it.</p>
<p>Applicant D; Applicant C: 1000 SAT score, 2.15 GPA, average letters of recommendation, poorly written statement of purpose, poor portfolio, uncertain of interest. Accept? PROBABLY NOT.</p>
<p>Of course each applicant may have strengths and weaknesses and all criteria were used to evaluate the application. Ultimately, the portfolio did carry the most weight overall.</p>
<p>Please please do not jump to these silly assumptions that just because a school does not REQUIRE a portfolio that students do not SUBMIT portfolios and/or that portfolios are not used to evaluate a student's application. As mentioned, I'd guess that 98% of applicants submitted a portfolio. This was my experience.</p>
<p>Taxguy, where large companies interview is based more on the size of a program than on its quality. In terms of enrollment, Yale has a very small, elite program in comparison to say, Pratt. But just because a large company doesn't interview at smaller places doesn't mean students are precluded from applying and working there.</p>