Vocal or Theater Focus?

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>Prof. Himmelheber:</p>

<p>See my response to mtmommy and ericsmom, but you raise a really interesting question about the best preparation for a career. Vocal emphasis? Acting emphasis? You say that students ought to go for the most comprehensive "triple-threat" training available, which is excellent advice. </p>

<p>But, do you think that will hold true 5,10, or 15 years down the road? In other disciplines, we often try to forecast what the market will be like to prepare students to meet the challenges and opportunities of the future. Where do you see musical theater going?</p>

<p>P.S. Thanks for the tip on Cal State, Fullerton. It was off our radar screen but we will definately look into it.</p>

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<p>Hi, Papa:</p>

<p>I believe that 10 or more years down the line, if your daughter hasn't already firmly established herself in the professional world - and this will most likely be in the form of "generic chorus girl" rather than leading lady - she will have a hard time breaking into the leading lady circuit (great voice or not). The reason being? There are SOOOO many girls with great voices, and how many make it to star status right "out of the wrapper?"</p>

<p>Look at our current great leading ladies - MOST have established themselves by years of working up through the lines. If your daughter hopes for a career, I believe she, too, needs to aim for "starting at the bottom and working her way up." So many talented students believe that they will get big leading roles once they hit the market, only to be sorely disappointed. But remember that the chorus roles pay nearly the same rate as a (relative newcomer) leading lady; so take heart (all the way to the bank). </p>

<p>Also, during the early "chorus years," she will be making contacts through the work generated - and show business is all about contacts.</p>

<p>Unless she hopes to break into the opera world (which is as challenging as musical theatre, in its own respects), and then somehow serendipitously cross over to star in musical theatre... The odds of this happening are really less than breaking in to M.T. at the chorus level.</p>

<p>Many of our great leading ladies have training in all three areas:</p>

<p>Patty LuPone (Evita: "Stand Back, Buenos Aires" dance)
Bernadette Peters (Dames at Sea; ALL the hoofing she did in that show)
Bebe Neuwirth (Chicago: puh-lease, her dances and athleticism)
Kim Criswell (Cats Grizabella; Dames at Sea Ruby)
Kristen Chenowith (Steel Pier: a show about dance marathons!)
Susan Egan (Cabaret, Millie)</p>

<p>I could go on and on (but am using great restraint today, as I have a date for the theatre tonight).</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>Also remember, less than 5% of Actors Equity Association (the professional stage actors and stage managers union) earn more than POVERTY LEVEL income in any year. (As I tell my students, "You would have a better chance of making a living as a professional gambler!") </p>

<p>Why make the process any harder than it already is?</p>

<p>If opera is her bent, study there. If musical theatre is her calling, study it all: acting, singing, and dancing - she'll NEED it all.</p>

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<p>I don't think that MTPapa is questioning whether his daughter needs to study acting, singing, and dancing in order to make it in the MT world. I think he knows all that is necessary, but it seems his real question is what kind of program (BFA vs BM, or BFA that is more acting oriented [ex. CMU] vs BFA that is more vocally oriented [ex OCU]). My personal belief is that acting is the number skill a performing student of any type should learn to hone. First of all, you need to be a GOOD actor if you want to make it bigger than a chorus boy or girl. Also, there are ALOT more jobs for an actor who is also a great singer (i.e. MT PLUS straight plays, commercial work, and film/tv) than there is for someone who is a GREAT singer who took a few acting classes in their BM or not-very-acting-heavy BFA.</p>

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<p>Prof. Himmelheber:</p>

<p>Thanks for the information. It's a heck of a hard road, but in the end, you've got to follow those dreams. </p>

<p>Best wishes,</p>

<p>MTPapa</p>

<p>P.S. And, if she doesn't make it in musical theater, we'll encourage her to fine tune her poker skills! There's always the "World Poker Tournament" that she could enter. Thanks again.</p>

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<p>I'll write more later, but I thought you could benefit from the MT vs. classical thread that I bumped for you. It mentions some schools you may want to consider.</p>

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<p>MTPapa - Welcome to the addictive world of the CC MT forum! I totally agree it is addictive and don't feel I have completed my day without checking it! My family thinks I've lost my mind...</p>

<p>More thoughts - No matter what she does, find a safety school to apply for where she would be happy. All of these programs are so very competitive and take tiny percentages of the kids who audition.</p>

<p>Your D's training and background should serve her well in auditioning for any of the schools that have strong MT programs. I believe that the strong singing voice is something major that all the schools are looking for. She should do well! See schools discussed above by theatermom, schools mentioned on the MT vs. Classical thread, and the competitive schools listed on the Big List (link found at top of the MT web page).</p>

<p>In my below advice, bear in mind that we have not visited or evaluated the schools farther northeast than NY state, in Florida, in Arizona, or in California (really anywhere west of OK), so there are probably other good options.</p>

<p>Based on what you said about your D, I would highly recommend the BM programs at OCU and BW. I know for a fact she would continue that excellent vocal training at OCU. After that, U Michigan seems a good option - BFA program but under the school of music. Also, we only visited NYU Tisch CAP 21, but you need to read the postings about NYU Steinhardt, as their BM degree that focuses on MT may also be a good fit.</p>

<p>It won't hurt you to do a number of auditions, possibly at one of the west coast unified auditions. Spread out your possibilities! We may see you on the audition circuit (but not on west coast).</p>

<p>(PS - I think Mtmommy is out of pocket and getting to OCU to see her very talented daughter perform the lead in Footloose tomorrow night, so she'll probably be back in touch with you later. I'm so excited to get to meet her and my other CC friends who will be at OCU tomorrow night!!!)</p>

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<p>To Ericsmom, Mtmommy and others with kids at OCU this summer,</p>

<p>Break a leg to your kids and enjoy every minute watching them strut their stuff in Footloose. I'll be thinking of you tomorrow night!</p>

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<p>Papa: I apologize. I guess I misunderstood your question...</p>

<p>I think that the BFA is a far superior education model. The BA is truly a "liberal arts" degree - exposing the students to a broad experience, but not as focused as what the BFA programs are.</p>

<p>As to which school, and through which Dept. - take the advise given before. Audition for anything and everything your daughter is INTERESTED in; then take the best offer. </p>

<p>When looking at schools, this site has great information to glean (you could spend hours looking through all the posts, and learn something new with every thread).</p>

<p>Best of luck to you and your daughter. You are doing the right thing by looking/researching in advance...VERY smart, and it will pay off in the end.</p>

<p>And all you folks with OCU kids - break a leg, and CHEERS!</p>

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<p>Thanks to everyone who posted a reply to my query. I feel like we've got some really good options to explore and appreciate Prof. Himmelheber's comments on the importance of balanced training in music, theater, and dance. </p>

<p>Hopefully, we'll have an opportunity to meet on the "audition circuit" this fall and winter. </p>

<p>Best wishes,</p>

<p>MTPapa</p>

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<p>We just completed the rounds of auditions for Seniors for MT programs this past year. My D sounds similar to yours. If you are looking for MT programs that will emphasize music training (all want you to be able to sing well) you should look at Baldwin Wallace and NYU Steinhardt. We were amazed at how many MT programs had minimal music training. Oh sure, you have private voice, but what about ear training, music theory, keyboard skills, etc?? You have to ask yourself what you want out of the college training and then pick the program that meets those objectives. It is a given that we all want our kids to get the training to be employed in the field. But you have to look beyond that to what the specific training focus that you want. My daughter wanted to be a well trained musician as a priority. Of course she wants strong acting skills and to dance well, or she wouldn't be in music theatre. However, she also has one of those high soprano voices that seems to be made for opera lit, so she wants to continue to explore that domain. The smaller liberal arts schools tend to be open to crossover between classical/mt. NYU Steinhardt is also unusual in that vein. Most of the larger programs do not allow that flexibility...i.e. Michigan, CCM, Boston, CMU.</p>

<p>You need to ask lots of questions of both the faculty and students currently inthe program to see what the "real deal" is at each school. If she has a strong dance background and is willing to do extra work in dance, then the dance component is not that big a deal (which is what my D decided when she chose NYU Steinhardt). </p>

<p>Reputation and chat room info is useful to some extent. But the real bottom line is to find the program and people that match up best to you. Do apply at a number of programs, because the competition is fierce and schools do "type" at auditions. i.e. if they have lots of all american girl looking sopranos, they won't take another one, no matter how talented they are.</p>

<p>For reference, myD applied and auditioned at 7 schools, was accepted at 5. But we looked at probably 6 more that she eliminated. Apply early and audition early in the process. Find out which schools give away slots as they audition, as you will want to go to these first. Some schools don't give any slots until all auditions have been completed. Those you could wait until later in the audition cycle. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Just wanted to make a correction about UM's MT program and classical crossover - I am not sure specifically what "crossover" you mean, divamom, but UM BFA MT students students in the School of Music and are allowed to audition for operas as well as MT productions. True, they probably will not get leads - but then again, since UM has a grad opera program, many undergrad voice majors also do not get leads - as is also true of other big opera programs (such as IU, for example). But they do get cast in the opera chorus. In addition, ALL MT voice teachers are VOICE department faculty - meaning they are ALL classically-trained performers themselves who teach opera singers as well as MT's. In fact, UM has two incredibly prestigious opera singers on their Voice Faculty who teach many MT's: George Shirley, who was the first African-American tenor at the Met, and Shirley Verrett, another well-know Met singer (who also sang "You'll Never Walk Alone" in the 1994 Broadway revival of CAROUSEL - and sang that on the 1994 Tony Awards, for all of you MT video aficionados!). And these two are accessible teachers who regularly support their students' MT performances - not simply "resident stars." All MT students have private voice lessons each week, plus each voice teacher holds a studio class each week where all of his or her students sing for one another and are constructively critiqued by the teacher and fellow students - so the opera students and MT's work collaboratively (and sing "crossover" rep as well - of course all MT's must sing classical as well as MT material in their private lessons). </p>

<p>Michigan requires that all BFA MT's pass 2 levels of theory (NOT "baby theory" by any means!) and piano. In addition, they are tested on solfeg as part of their intensive sophomore evaluations and are expected to maintain those skills. Many, many students in the program are accomplished instrumental musicians and can play in the pit for shows if they are not cast -and some choose to not audition for certain shows so they can assist the guest conductors and/or music directors. Students who are accomplished pianists often accompany for their classmates' voice lessons (paid, of course, and in high demand), and extremely advanced pianists have done independent studies of accompaniment, arranging, orchestrating, etc., with the head of MT accompaniment. Many UM students write sophisticated musicals and cabaret song material, and the program fully supports this and they have many venues in which to produce it. I could extend this list almost ad infinitum - the point is that UM BFA MT's are ALL musicians, and the more a student wants to take advantage of ALL offerings in the UM School of Music, the more he can! </p>

<p>Ok, off my soapbox (as Eve says) - I'm obviously just very passionate about the excellent musicianship of the UM students. Nope, I don't work for them - I love ALL the great MT programs! But I also want to make sure you young musicians out there really place UM alongside BW, Steinhardt, OCU, and other "music focused" programs.</p>

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<p>Gkoukla can also speak to this, even better than I can, since her D is a voice AND MT major at UM (at least I think she is...?) :)</p>

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<p>The UM program sounds superb! I had no idea - thank you Coach, for giving such a wonderful thumbnail of the musicianship education there. Top notch!</p>

<p>eve</p>

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<p>Coach, your description of UMich's BFA program and the emphasis and requirements in music was one of its great appeals to my daughter. She liked that piano was included though she is an accomplished pianist. She found out that if you place out of the piano requirements (she did at her piano placement audition as she as placed in the fifth level), that a student still interested in taking piano, could. The involvement in a music school is appealing for a musician and a bit different than in a drama department. My D did not get into UMich but did love it. Now, she wants to buy a good keyboard to take with her to NYU as piano is significant in her life and she indeed accompanies others, as well as herself. She won't be studying piano at her program but she will continue to be involved in music. I don't think she needs piano lessons in her program or music theory so much as both are skills she has been immersed in right along but she would have enjoyed being in a music school and that aspect of the training environment. I do believe that those who have not studied music theory or can't sight read or play piano, would do best to learn these things. </p>

<p>Another way to look at it is to go to school where you work on the areas you have less training in and for my daughter, that would be acting so I suppose being in a BFA program within a drama school will be beneficial to her (even if she thought it sounded real great to be where piano and musicianship were taught). Anyhow, everything you mentioned about UM is quite true and it was part of its appeal in my D's eyes.
Susan</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for that great description of the strong emphasis on musicianship at UM. From our experience, you have painted a totally accurate picture of the opportunities in and demands of the UM program and done it with eloquence and more detail than even I was aware of. I was also planning to respond to the post that left UM out of the "music loop" but sometimes I am wary of being perceived as "over the top" as a UM booster so I'm so glad to have you share your knowledge of and experiences with this amazingly well balanced and thorough program. </p>

<p>Like Gkoukla's D (and she is probably still in Italy visiting and observing her D in her VP program there so may not be able to respond for a bit), my D also has some interest in classical vocal performance (both were honorable mention awardees in the category of Classical Voice/Soprano in the NFAA competition - my D in '04, hers in '05) and one of the things that attracted her to UM initially was the very close ties between VP and MT. My D did not want to focus on classical VP as an undergraduate so only auditioned as an MT. But Gkoukla's D is most unusual - and talented - in having auditioned for both VP and MT and being accepted by both programs. Gkoukla can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she is still "technically" based in VP but because of her acceptance to both programs, she has been given permission to take many of the MT classes and even participated in the MT Freshman Showcase this year. I guess she is a "defacto" double major. One of the main differences between freshman MT and VP majors is that MT's study private voice with GSI's (graduate student instructors - and that's whole different conversation) for one half hour each week while VP's study private voice immediately with Voice faculty and I believe that was a very important factor in Gkoukla's D's decision to be based in VP this past year. </p>

<p>(As with any choice, there are always things you gain and things you give up. If you are interested in further discussion about MT vs Classical decisions, there is a great thread on this forum that hasn't been posted to in awhile. It was bumped already on 7/28, but with posts coming fast and furious, it has slipped down a few pages again, so here's the link to this thread
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=725017#post725017%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=725017#post725017&lt;/a> )</p>

<p>As sophomores at UM, all MT's move into the faculty private voice studios. During the Spring term of their freshman year they are responsible for getting permission to observe the various faculty at work and then arranging to audition for the faculty members they would like to work with. The faculty then in turn invite the students they wish to work with to be in their studio beginning in the fall of sophomore year. Students have strong feelings about the various faculty and I know there can be sadness when a student doesn't get his or her first choice, which does happen. But the truth is, as Coach C has alluded to, there isn't a "bad" choice to be had and all of these students get incredible voice training.</p>

<p>Thanks again Coach C!</p>

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<p>Hello everyone! We're back from Italy, and tomorrow I will write more extensively on the UM questions (as best I can), and on our trip. It's rest time!</p>

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<p>Hi Gkoukla,</p>

<p>Welcome home! Can't wait to hear all about Italy - I want a vicarious trip to Tuscany!!!</p>

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<p>Hi Ghoukla!</p>

<p>Can't wait to hear all the details!</p>

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<p>I finally caught up on some much needed sleep and laundry, but haven't read through all I've missed on this board. Forgive me if I don't address all that was asked of me. I'm a bit overwhelmed with all of the posts I haven't been able to read.</p>

<p>Italy was more than I could have ever imagined. Visually it was the most breathtaking country I've ever been in. Suffice it to say I would go back in a heartbeat, although I don't think my waistline could stand it.</p>

<p>The Daniel Ferro Vocal Program was all that I hoped it might be for our D. She was next to the youngest, with the oldest being 32 years of age. She was able to participate in every aspect of the program. (Rather than bore you with those details, I urge you to visit their website at <a href="http://www.ferrovocalprogram.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ferrovocalprogram.org&lt;/a&gt;) D loved observing and participating in the master classes most especially. Her word to describe it was "fascinating". I was invited to a Master Class as her guest and I never heard such talented singers, especially one particular baritone. When Daniel Ferro spoke, his words and coachings were impeccable. My D even had a difficult time explaining how fabulous her experience had been, so she invited me to see for myself. I was enthralled. </p>

<p>As an intermediate participant, our D performed two solos at the culmination of the three weeks. I had to pinch myself sitting there in Italy listening to my D sing. What a thrill.</p>

<p>This was the perfect choice for her this summer. I am so happy she was able to experience all that Mr. Ferro and his colleagues had to offer. It was an adventure like none other for her and for us.</p>

<p>On another topic, MT vs VP major, theatermom hit the proverbial nail on the head. My D, for now, is participating to the fullest extent in both programs. Call it a double major or not, she was accepted into both disciplines. And, yes, theatermom was right, we chose the VP route for the voice training in the freshman year. If you have any further questions, feel free to email me with specifics.</p>

<p>Thanks for all your good thoughts and wishes. As we head into our second year at UM, this board will again prove invaluable to me. Thanks for all I've learned through you.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the posting, Gkoukla. Sounds like vocalist heaven! Did your D have any "change of heart" regarding pursuing MT at all doing the voice intensive? Or is her hope still to pursue MT and VP? Does she have plans to return next year? I've forgotten how she "discovered" this program. Was it recommended to her through UM or did you/she discover it independently and pursue it? Sorry for all the questions, hope you don't mind my asking them. Rest well. And dream of Italy!</p>