Are there any college vocal performance programs that are known for embracing songs that are not strictly classical. As in, opera and art songs are part of the program but singers are also working on musical theatre type songs (think, Phantom, Les Mis and other “operatic” musicals) or even Josh Groban type songs? Not talking about musical theatre degrees or contemporary or pop music programs.
@vistajay , YES! But there are few high end programs that are heavily classical AND MT. Check out the Musical Theater forum right away! But, big warning, MT is as highly competitive a sphere as Opera for undergraduate college admissions, and most of the great programs will want your child to have already made a “choice” (most…but not all). An undergraduate degree in MT is a terminal degree for most students, whereas an Opera/Classical Voice BA or BM is just the beginning. Just some things to think about. Many others will have lots to add, I’m sure!
I would suggest starting with finding out how many Opera and Musical Theater productions a school does every year. And then check very carefully whether or not degree candidates in different programs (I.e. BM Vocal Performance or BM MT) have access to being cross cast in both MT and Opera productions. Sometimes, school policy and culture differ greatly (in other words, cross casting is allowed, but hardly ever happens, or is frowned upon). I guess I have been assuming your child wants to be cast/get stage time. If he is more interested in simply learning literature and studying particular sorts of music, that is more a function of his primary voice teacher; research very carefully teachers that are open to MT with Classical training, and ask lots of questions at the trial lessons.
The two that I see mentioned the most are: Oklahoma City University (a friend of my D’s went there and liked it) and I believe, but double check, ASU.
I do know that St. Olaf as an LAC has a reputation of having more diversity in styles. A talented vocalist from my D’s high school went there and was classically trained while being in MT shows and doing a little jazz even.
Some of the “lesser” know schools are more flexible…so I only know about the ones in my area U of MN Duluth (if you like the frigid cold), Luther in Iowa and Iowa State have respected programs that are a lot more flexible while doing classical training. So you can look for little nuggets in your area.
When you get to the more selective, known programs, they tend to be much more strict (in classical or MT)…but it can depend if you get lucky and find an open-minded teacher. My D had indicated an interest in MT through her degree choice. And it was noted by her teacher…but it never happened…so be aware. And to be far, it was only noted and not promised…and as my D advanced it became obvious she should focus on classical training which is paying dividends after leaving grad school.
@dramasopranomom , he wants a vocal performance, music degree. He does not want a MT degree. He likes opera and classical songs, but he also loves singing many musical theatre songs. I think, at the studio level, he wants some freedom to explore MT songs sometimes and not be limited to opera and art songs. I know that means finding a voice teacher at a particular school who is more flexible. But I was wondering if anyone knew of particular college programs that are flexible in this regard. For example, I have read that OCU may be. And there are some music schools with MT minors or certificates, such as USC, Northwestern and SMU.
@vistajay , excellent. Does he have a concrete idea of career goals? Because in my experience with my D, he will be asked. OCU is an absolute definite in this regard, and all of the VP teachers will be totally on board with this, however spots in their top studios are often reserved for MT focus or Opera students at the Graduate level. There are other programs, but I do think they are the exception rather than the rule. Perhaps look at Lawrence University (Conservatory) as well as Shenandoah Conservatory, and schools like Pepperdine and perhaps Vanderbilt. I’m not sure about specific teachers at these programs, but maybe somebody else can chime in. Again, I ask the question about stage time; in my experience it isn’t so hard to find a program where a student can STUDY both classical and contemporary (MT) repertoire, but finding a program where your S can PERFORM (being cast in both Opera and MT) is much rarer. This is, in part, because the programs are often very separate, because often Opera roles are filled by Grad students (note the recommended programs above) and other students are specializing, so competition for roles is stiff. My D is a Freshman VP BM candidate at Oberlin, and honestly, we thought our questions about this would be a death knell during audition weekend at Oberlin! My D was very clear on her goals going in, and I think this helped her very much (she is focused on Opera but wanted the freedom to explore MT/ a MT-friendly school); she was asked very pointedly about this at both her Oberlin and OCU auditions (she was accepted into both programs).
Sometimes when I tell the story about Oberlin (and especially D’s Studio Teacher) being open to MT study and performance, people don’t believe me, lol! There are several VP students at Oberlin who perform leads in musicals, but now that D is enrolled, I can see that it would be hard to split your energy between Opera/MT, but certainly not impossible (obviously, there is no MT degree at Oberlin). My D is clear that her career focus is Opera, so that helps. I applaud you and your S for looking so carefully into all these details! I think this gives him a much better chance of finding a good fit in terms of teacher and program. Also, it very much doesn’t hurt that he is a boy! This will undoubtedly offer him some extra flexibility and opportunities! Best of luck!
(In reading this over, I realize that much of my advice centers on performance opportunities, I guess because this is what my D was focused on, and so it’s what I know something about. If your S isn’t so concerned with performance opportunities, I do think many more options are open to him.)
Thank you, @dramasopranomom , for your thoughtful reply. He does want to perform, but to date he has been looking at voice programs where he could say, perform in a student club musical on the side when it suited him. He is not really looking to split his time between the two or star in the department’s spring musical. That said, he is trying to figure out his career goals. I agree he needs to be able to articulate these in interviews/auditions. Then again, he may end up at a liberal arts school with a strong music program, for the very reason that he is not 100% sure what he wants to do. That will be ok too.
@vistajay that WILL be okay, too! Take a peek at some of the schools I mentioned…some of the programs are really great! And there’s always Oberlin, too!
Agree with all the is said above. I needed to run to a meeting so I wasn’t able to clarify a point above.
My D did a BS(OF) degree at IU with theater/MT as her OF (outside field). Her teacher knew at her audition she had that interest. She even had an MT song on her audition list. IU was the only one to ask to hear it. I don’t want to imply her teacher ignored her request on MT. Once she entered school and started getting cast in opera chorus and then roles…there really was no time to do MT or theater…PERFORMANCE as said above. My D took theater and MT classes every year except senior year to fulfill her degree. She even did the junior MT showcase (she’s quite sure she was the weak link in the group being an outsider and an okay dancer). It was hard to “keep up” with the MT kids and work on the showcase while she had a principal (thankfully small) role in an opera production at the same time. The issue in performance degrees is always TIME.
Note that IU no longer allows the concentration my D did in MT without an audition for MT. AND IU now does one classical MT piece in the Opera Theater schedule. So some teachers are working with students on this type of music in a classical school (but they aren’t doing Rent). This could be happening at other schools too.
So it goes back to the same questions/comments in many threads…what do you want to lead with…are there opportunities to dapple in other forms…what are they and are people actually doing it (don’t think your kid will be the special one)…and remember the best laid plans often change…as long as you find a reputable school with lots of opportunities you just need to let go once they get there and see how they develop. Trust me, my D had a hard time letting go…but as narrow as things got for her during college (which she didn’t always like)…opportunities have gotten wider after college and the “strict” classical training is paying off.
Hi @vistajay - my daughter and some other kids from the school of music were just cast in the student club musical at the university campus. This was a great option for her since she’s at a school with grad students, so it will be a while before she gets any opera roles. The students needed to get permission from their studio teachers prior to accepting their roles, but this is standard practice at the school. Hopefully it will be a good experience - she can’t wait to get back on the stage and it’s not a huge role so her studio and school work can be managed.
In terms of studio work, she’s got so much classical rep and technique to learn (she was a latecomer to classical singing) that there’s not much time for working on musical theater. Good luck to your son in his search!
FWIW–
Various schools and departments may have differing degrees of rigidity and separation among art forms (which honestly may well reflect the turf battles among various professors), but perhaps inf the real world of performance, the lines are blurring. As parents of prospective performance majors/students themselves, if you haven’t encountered Patrick Hansen, director of the opera studio at McGill University, you might be interested in reading his opera blog. Here is one post on the merging/blending of forms:
http://patricksoperablog.blogspot.com/2014/01/xmas-blog-11-operas-and-operettas-and.html
One brief excerpt:
"In 2014, Glimmerglass, San Francisco Opera, the Lyric Opera of Chicago, and Vancouver Opera are producing pieces that most would define as musicals. I’d like to buck that idea and just throw all of them into one genre: OPERA.
For me, opera is simply a story that is told through singing. That means The Messiah, that means “Despite and Still”, that means “Widmung”, that means Owen Wingrave, that means A New Moon, that means Oklahoma!, and that means Next To Normal.
It’s just the style of singing that changes."
My D is experiencing this now. For her it is more theater productions that incorporate music. Her first love was acting and she has had no problem getting cast…and being respected for her musical abilities. In the opera world, she is still young and not “ripe” yet. She is just starting YAP auditions, paying fees and having to travel…for maybe nothing.
The casting in theater (no fees/no travel/some success) may become an issue for her as she wants to perform…and the continual process of working on her technique endlessly to maybe be an opera singer at 30…well that “dream” is getting some competition. And of course she NEEDS to make money. So theater and regional, light opera is where she’s getting hired. She is just finishing up an operetta type performance and the conductor is from a well-known conservatory and in his 40s. He pulled her aside knowing she had just graduated and said that if he could do anything differently, he would have stepped outside the strict classical world earlier. He said he found more opportunities once he “loosened” up a bit and regretted not taking some different opportunities when he was younger…and he also mentioned “times are changing”. He encouraged her to keep a more broad view of performing. There is always the fear that if you don’t keep on the narrow path you may mess up your chances…and my D has seen evidence of that at the highest level (like doing MT and not being taken seriously in opera - it does happen). She’s however not sure her path will lead to the upper levels, of if she’s suited to it, so she’s willing to be more flexible and finding more support for it outside of college. As she always says, “I just want to perform.”
And note…I don’t want to imply its been a simple road for my D…trust me she’s pretty poor and working a ton (2 performance jobs now)…but she’s having no problem “yet” lining up work. I wonder down the line how this will all work out…but she’s very happy right now as I think she was concerned she’d be struggling to find work…now she’s just struggling to pay bills.
I’m book marking this discussion. I have a son who sings and plays piano (and guitar on the side) and would like a flexible program. I don’t think he views himself as wanting to become 100% an opera singer or 100% a classical pianist. He does MT, but has NO interest in pursuing theater in college and wants to pursue music. He’s also academic and has good test scores and I really don’t think he would be happy at somewhere like Berklee (nor do I think we could afford that program anyway) even though he likes the sound of it on paper.
The small LAC’s with good music program are seeming better for this. We visited St. Olaf and had low expectations but I actually think that could work for this kid (we are not religious BTW). I am also very excited about the look of Lawrence University and we will visit that program soon. That school in particular is very known for independent tracks for students and out of the box thinking and has a real conservatory program. Anyway, my kid has the chops at least in piano to audition (the voice is starting to settle, we’ll see where he’s at in 9 months) almost anywhere but I don’t think he’d be super happy at a super structured classically based conservatory.
@vistajay D rec’d her BM degree in Vocal Performance with a concentration in MT from NYU (Steinhardt.) The program is excellent and sounds like just what you’re looking for. D’s senior recital had opera, art songs and MT. The second half of NYU’s senior recitals are selected scenes from a chosen musical (acted and staged). The MT concentration is based on classic MT (mainly pre-1990’s shows.) The department of Vocal Performance also offers a degree in Classical Voice. Students attend some of the same classes and often the same voice instructors.
http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/music/vocal/music_theatre/undergraduate
@uskoolfish , I agree Steinhardt looks perfect and I have checked it out for him. Problem there is the cost. We will not qualify for FA and would have to pay full freight unless he got a large music talent scholarship. He is NMSF, and his other options will likely range from $10,000-$30,000 annual family contribution due to combination of academic merit and talent scholarships. $65,000-$70,000 per year for NYU is just too much, even though it is a great school and program.
D got $11k in talent merit did (no need). But even with that, the cost will still be over $60k a year. She graduated 5 years ago, so it was a little more affordable.
James Madison University has both a BM VP amd BM MT. While the VP majors do focus more specifically on classical, they often will have an MT piece or 2 on their senior recital. The MT majors follow a similar course of study to the VP majors, but will do slightly more MT repertory in their lessons.
Students in both majors may audition for all operas and musicals.
I would recommend various “top 50” state schools with a good voice program. Truth to be told, you are either training in opera or doing voice to eventually do choral conducting or composition. Some programs are more flexible, but the reason they train on those pieces is that if you can survive an opera program, by and large, you can then CRUSH the theater-only performers when it comes to singing. I recommend that you still go into an opera program to learn what you need to be able to sing literally anything. And, without damaging your voice. That, and almost 100% of the true voice talent that goes into teaching teaches in various opera/classical training programs.
Now if you are not 100% serious about opera, there are many schools with a broad enough program or that do newer operas so that you won’t be doing the typical thing thing semester to semester. Most of these are various state schools with large programs and a thirst for out of state talent ( scholarships are common ) $10K a year or less is the norm if you have some talent as many of them have ways to waive the out of state charges.
That said, voice versus instrumental…( seeing the post above )… I recommend voice as the core is the same, but there currently is a dearth of good voice talent nation-wide ( many high schools simply have no effective choir or voice training ), so scholarships are more likely to be offered. Also, if singing and playing at the same time is a thing, potentially, adding an instrument later on is easier than training your voice as you get older. The downside is the $5-7K in lessons you have to put up front for 1.5-2 years to get the scholarships at good schools. Voice training absolutely requires professional instruction. $125-$150 an hour is common if the person has actual performance credentials.
As for what school to choose, let’s be honest. It’s undergrad. You should be looking at large state schools that are highly ranked but that are affordable. If it has on-site opera facilities, that’s great. If it has a good choir that completes at the Grand Prix level, that’s a sign that it has a solid voice program. If it also is a NCAA Football school, it will have a big band as well, which means good teaching of music fundamentals and a well rounded theory and composition program.
Save the money for grad school.
What state are you in?
Great, practical info, @JOberlander . Thanks. We are in Louisiana and though Loyola of New Orleans is on his list, he is looking out of state otherwise.
@vistajay There was a significant difference between the repertoire and the actual training my D received from her voice teacher at NYU as a Vocal Performance major with a concentration in MT compared to the repertoire and training given to VP students with a concentration in classical opera in NYU’s VP program. Some voice teachers taught both concentrations, but the training was very different.
It was not interchangeable like @JOberlander is alluding to. Just because you can sing opera does not mean that you can crush MT songs.
My D had several friends who wanted MT but went to traditional VP programs in other schools. Again, they were trained very differently and did not have the same experience/ repertoire at all. They did not have access to classes in dance, acting, and acting the song–which were geared to MT. Some had voice teachers who absolutely had no flexibility in terms of taking on MT songs and no experience in theatre although they were told differently on school visits.
I do agree that D learned to use her voice in a healthy way by being trained by VP professors. (But some will argue that it did not prepare students for belting and more contemporary musicals.) Also keep in mind that very few MT actors who studied voice in undergrad (and were happy with their experience) go on to grad school. NYU has a grad program in VP with a concentration in MT. Those who attend are students who found their usually classical voice training inadequate. It is essentially the same program as NYU’s undergrad program in terms of professors and classes.