<p>
[quote]
JoeJoe, most of my friends, including myself are book learners. We would rarely pay attention in class, get together the night before a test and learn all the material. Its not that bad man.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So because you are your friends didn't need to pay attention in class must mean that is the truth for everyone else?</p>
<p>I just finished my BS and am starting on my MS. Here was how i looked at it; With a 50% RA appointment you get your tuition waved and get an approximately $2000 a month stipend (also the same for a TA appointment). Over 3 semesters, assuming you work full time during breaks and assuming $60000 starting salary for a BS, it equates to about a $40,000 difference. At a 7-10k higher a year salary for an MS, that's 4-6 years to make up the difference. Another thing to take into consideration was job flexibility. Almost any employeer who is specifically looking for a BS will also hire an MS. On the other hand, employeers specifically looking for an MS or PhD, usually won't consider somebody with a BS. In general, there is also a greater chance for advancement into higher positions with an MS, as opposed to a BS. With advancement will also come a further increases in salary. If your career is 30 years, it adds up to quite a big difference.</p>
<p>Other benefits are you get to get involved with what you're interested in, as opposed to pretty much being told what classes you have to take. Additionally, staying in school allows you to have a more flexible schedule to go out and do things, take trips, etc. Most jobs, when you first start, only give you 7-10 days of vacation and have you working 10 hour days which limits your flexibility.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So because you are your friends didn't need to pay attention in class must mean that is the truth for everyone else?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>no not at all actually. from your post you made the statement that it was just to hard without school. Who says its hard without school, because its hard for you is it for everybody? Everybody is different. In my care I can say I learned just about everything via a textbook. professors didnt do much if anything for me. Excespt give me grades and structure. But then again that structure can be gotten if one were to go to any one of the 350+ abet accredited abet schools. </p>
<p>
[quote]
"Dr. Horse" your statement is ridiculous. Engineers most certainly need degrees, at least anyone who is going to do any real engineering. Otherwise engineers would become a bunch of glorified technologists.</p>
<p>While I am sure you could learn everything by yourself, I doubt all but a few people would. Engineering requires such a broad knowledge that schools are finding it harder and harder to squeeze everything into 4 years.</p>
<p>Also, before you can really study engineering, you need a huge academic foundation, made up from Calculus, Chemistry, Physics etc. Thats not the kind of thing you pick up on the job (i.e you wont learn Stokes theorem on the job). This "foundation" often takes students 2-4 semesters to complete. Without any certification, how would you be sure that people actually studied these critical topics, and didn't just try and skip them?</p>
<p>Also, you are supposed to learn more in college than just course specific material. You are supposed to learn how to think.</p>
<p>While engineers could technically do without college, and I'm sure some people could learn everything by themselves, I prefer the people who are going to design bridges or nuclear reactors in my state to have been to college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Call it ridiculous, but ive heard multiple cases of engineers not needing degrees, including my uncle who I mentioned in an EE at Cisco. </p>
<p>Your right engineering does require a broad but not deep knowledge, which really is not hard at all to learn. In my field of interest, there are way more non college graduates doing the work than college graduates. I as a college graduate am few and far in between. But then again, I ask you to go and try to write a OS kernel, it doesn't get harder than that. The tools I learned in School rarely help me, if any. I can say the same thing about my internships. </p>
<p>In my First year of college I took Physics 1, 2 calc 1, 2, Chem 1,2 Statics as well as DC circuits and a few programming classes. Nothing all that difficult, except calc 2. I learned all of this on my own from the text books. Thats just how I learn. If I could learn all of this stuff in a year, anybody could. best part is I suck at math. The next semester I took Dynamics, AC circuits, Calc 3, Physics 3. Again I did the same thing. The material is not that hard, if one can at least afford the book or rent one, I see absolutely no limitation.</p>
<p>Now you ask how will you know if they really knew the info. Thats easy, ask them to prove it, or they can show projects which show their knowledge. Much more efficient than a test and problem set. Even with the standard education, many engineering students go into interviews and don't know crap. It happens fairly common.</p>
<p>As for needing structure in self learning. Like I said above all you need to do is go to any colleges website and follow theirs. Mostly everything is on-line nowadays. We can even go through a engineering curriculum from the best schools in the world online for free by watching videos. So whats different between a guy that goes and sits in a classroom and somebody who does it from home. Nothing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
no not at all actually. from your post you made the statement that it was just to hard without school. Who says its hard without school, because its hard for you is it for everybody? Everybody is different. In my care I can say I learned just about everything via a textbook. professors didnt do much if anything for me. Excespt give me grades and structure. But then again that structure can be gotten if one were to go to any one of the 350+ abet accredited abet schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Guess we've gone to two different schools then. I learn so much in class the only time I crack open a textbook is to do problems. My notes from in class serve me much better than textbooks have. Oftentimes I won't even buy the textbook until a week into class if I feel I'm going to bother using it. </p>
<p>This is what I don't understand is why people continue to pay for a school that doesn't teach them. There are many great schools out there with great professors. </p>
<p>I'm willing to bet there's a very small number of students who could actually successfully teach themselves engineering in four years. That was my point. No I never said everybody needed to go to school. But I guarantee you the majority of people do. People of other trades do not need college either yet continue to pay thousands of dollars to be taught things they could technically learn themselves. For most people school is much more efficient.</p>
<p>At Lockheed, a masters degree will bump you up one labor grade, and a PhD will bump you up one more....the salary differences are much more than the 10K alluded to above. Further, you will actually get to work on interesting things with an advanced degree...with just a BS your initial assignments will be quite menial...and you will be pressured into getting an advanced degree anyway.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Call it ridiculous, but ive heard multiple cases of engineers not needing degrees, including my uncle who I mentioned in an EE at Cisco.[/quote}
your uncle does not consist of a large enough sample size to warrant any sort of generalization. also, assuming from your posts that you are probably closer to my father's age, there was a time when college was not as crucial to getting a job. that time has passed.</p>
<p>Well Joe, all ive got to say is that you learn better from others humans. I dont think it has to do anything with the actual professors. Ive watched numerous online lectures from so called top professors, and found them all just as boring and useless. I instead tend to learn better by myself, reading a book and solving problems with no help. No method is better or worse than another, it just depends on the person.</p>
<p>Now onto why I paid for college. I paid for a grade and a degree. It offered me nothing else. As a masters student, all but one of my classes have been independent study, so its been good so far.</p>
<p>Dr. Horse, it's easy for you to make the argument now that you could have learned the material by yourself. However, I doubt very many people who never went to college (including those who did learn the materialby themselves) would share your opinion. </p>
<p>Also, college is about more than just learning course specific material.</p>
<p>Well in in my opinion ...people do have to take college it is IMP! caps! it provides you with the tools and know how and as far as learning is concerned.... about the textbooks and stuff .... hmmm who do u think guys helped u make that notes ..it was ur professor right... and how did he study?...umm lemme guess from NOTES!! beep wrong answer textbooks.....and as far as some guys have gone to say that college is not necessary for engg hmmm lemme put forward this... would u let a non college guy build a dam or build a bridge or something near you....??? umm lemme guess what ur answer will be .... it will obviously NO! so please for those guys stop being ironic...
it is coz of u guys that America is suffering is full of thugs drugees etc i blame you! ok i blame you...</p>
<p>and tell me how much % of college goin students or college educated guys have u seen taking part in bad stuff which goes in our society?</p>
<p>and well i am still in my first year... and i will certainly do a masters in business after i finish BS in electronics</p>
<p>AMEN!</p>
<p>How about getting an engineering job with a company that PAYS for you to get your masters degree? Many companies will pay for their employees to take courses toward advanced degrees...best of both worlds...you're earning a salary and getting experience in the field AND working towards your degree at the same time.</p>
<p>DH, the engineer, says it is far better to get your PE and experience in many engineering jobs than to have a masters degree.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well in in my opinion ...people do have to take college it is IMP! caps! it provides you with the tools and know how and as far as learning is concerned.... about the textbooks and stuff .... hmmm who do u think guys helped u make that notes ..it was ur professor right... and how did he study?...umm lemme guess from NOTES!! beep wrong answer textbooks.....and as far as some guys have gone to say that college is not necessary for engg hmmm lemme put forward this... would u let a non college guy build a dam or build a bridge or something near you....??? umm lemme guess what ur answer will be .... it will obviously NO! so please for those guys stop being ironic...
it is coz of u guys that America is suffering is full of thugs drugees etc i blame you! ok i blame you...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Is English a second language for you?</p>
<p>yea... why was it meant to hurt me? hahahahaha i didnt</p>
<p>
[quote]
How about getting an engineering job with a company that PAYS for you to get your masters degree? Many companies will pay for their employees to take courses toward advanced degrees...best of both worlds...you're earning a salary and getting experience in the field AND working towards your degree at the same time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, the obvious drawback is that most companies that will pay for your degree will also bind you to stay via a contract that forces you to pay everything back if you choose to quit the company once you graduate. As most people can't produce a 5-figure packet of cash easily, that means that you effectively cannot leave the firm. </p>
<p>It does make rational sense for a company to bind you in this way, as they don't want to see you get a degree on their dime only for you to immediately leave for better pay at some other company who didn't pay for your degree at all. But that also means that one of the most important reasons for even getting a master's degree is eliminated. Much of the whole point of getting that master's is to improve your job prospects, but that's difficult to do if you can't entertain job offers from other companies. Hence, if you work for a company that you want to stay at and who will provide you with a bump in salary and responsibilities after you get the master's, then you can certainly get them to pay. But if not, then you may be better off doing it yourself.</p>
<p>As a case in point, I know a girl who worked at Dell. Dell offered to pay for her dual master's (MBA + MS in engineering), in return for a 2-year commitment. The problem is that not only did she not really like working at Dell, but upon graduation, she got stuck with the exact same job and salary that she had before. She also couldn't recruit with other companies when she graduated because of her contracted commitment.</p>
<p>that was insightful.... says the ESL guy here :-)</p>
<p>yea sakky ...... well i will see what fate brings ...to my life rather for my life...there is still alot of time for me to think i am jsut 19 :-)</p>
<p>Perhaps that is the case with large companies like Dell. But around here, many small firms will pay a portion of or all of your college course work with no commitment beyond working your job at the same time. These are small regional companies...many of them consulting firms, some A and E firms. </p>
<p>Re: the Dell girls...she got her education completely paid for in exchange for a two year commitment? That is NOT a bad deal considering she is getting two years of experience with Dell for her work time AND she now has her masters on their dime.</p>
<p>Many companies that did offer to pay for continuing education are slowing phasing such benefits out. This is due to people not being loyal to their companies anymore. There was a time when people actually cared about the company they worked for and took pride in it. The times have really changed, Just thought id say that.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Re: the Dell girls...she got her education completely paid for in exchange for a two year commitment? That is NOT a bad deal considering she is getting two years of experience with Dell for her work time AND she now has her masters on their dime.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Oh, I don't know. I think it's a matter of opinion as to whether the deal was really that good or not. It depends in particular on your options. In her case, because she was also getting her MBA at a top school as part of the deal, she could have very easily gotten a quite nice and lucrative job at a top strategy consulting firm that would have almost certainly paid her double what she was making at Dell. Or she could have gone into investment banking. Sure, it's busted now, but she would have made a lot of money in the interim. But she couldn't even interview with the consulting and banking firms because she was bound to Dell. </p>
<p>Moreover, after graduation, she was forced to move to Winston-Salem, North Carolina, where Dell opened a new plant, and a place that she emphatically did not want to live in. She had no friends or family in the area as everybody she knew was in Austin Texas. But that was the job that Dell assigned to her, and since she was under contract, she had to go (or else pay the contract back). And, like I said, she ended up with a position that was no better than what she had before she got her master's. </p>
<p>So is it still a good deal? I don't know. Maybe for some people it is. Sure, if you like Dell, and don't mind working anywhere they might send you, and working any position they might give you, and, most of all, aren't interested in the other opportunities available to you such as consulting or banking, then it probably is a very good deal. But if not, then it probably isn't a good deal. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Many companies that did offer to pay for continuing education are slowing phasing such benefits out. This is due to people not being loyal to their companies anymore. There was a time when people actually cared about the company they worked for and took pride in it. The times have really changed, Just thought id say that.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would argue that the reverse is also true: people aren't loyal to their companies because they know the companies won't be loyal to them. Recent news stories are replete with examples of companies laying people off not only without any warning and without any severance, but also while trying not to even pay accrued vacation time. Some companies will rescind job offers that had already been accepted. Just think about that: you've turned down other job offers to take the one that you like, and you may have even moved to a new location, only to have your supposed employer rescind your accepted offer before you've even started the job. That leaves you holding the bag, for you can't easily reactivate those other offers you had because you turned them down and so those other companies have probably found other people to fill those positions. But the companies don't care: that's your problem.</p>
<p>One guy I know once said it best: you should never fall in love with your employer because you never know when your employer will fall out of love with you. Just remember: employers are not your friends. They can and do cut employees off whenever they want. The employer-employee relationship is purely business.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, the obvious drawback is that most companies that will pay for your degree will also bind you to stay via a contract that forces you to pay everything back if you choose to quit the company once you graduate. As most people can't produce a 5-figure packet of cash easily, that means that you effectively cannot leave the firm.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is not true with many companies that I worked for.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Oh yea India though is not suffering at all though right? Lets go ask someone in Mumbai. And BTW the indian restaurant right near my house was just closed down for trafficking women, and I live in the silicon valley. Maybe it's people like you why America is suffering.</p>