<p>What in the hell is he talking about? Duke is one of the top and most actively recruited schools...</p>
<p>FreshElephant, EVERY applicant for a summer program goes through the same interview process, which takes place on one or two days for every applicant. This is in early February every year. So I don't know how having a recruitment event makes Duke not a target school.</p>
<p>Indeed. I do not see how 15 to Goldman on a year when GS ranks 6 out of the most recruiting organizations (previously they were always in the top 5 including the number one spot last year) makes Duke a non target. That number is higher than Michigan Ross where the competition to get these positions is much greater.</p>
<p>In 2006, goldman probably took >20 students. Teach for America took 50 kids this year thus the number one position. Thats four times more than last year where they were in third place. Thus, if 17 went to the number three institution, its a good bet that the number one employer took more than 20 alone. </p>
<p>I really do not see how anyone is able to argue in face of such blatant evidence and say Duke isn't a recruited school.</p>
<p>And here is the stat for the number 12 organization last year:</p>
<p>"Deutsche Bank and Bank of America held class presentations in partnership with the economics department at Duke last year. As a direct result, Deutsche hired 10 undergraduates during its first year on campus, Albert said."</p>
<p>Link: <a href="http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/05/exitstats.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/05/exitstats.html</a></p>
<p>Now imagine the numbers for Morgan Stanley (number 3), Bain (number 2),
Bank of America, Accenture, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup...all of which had >10 Duke students joining them next year.</p>
<p>if you look at the calendar, you will see JP goes to Duke but does not have much activity there. Look at another peer school and you will see what i mean.</p>
<p>Duke is a great school, but I want to see hard facts that it is recruited like a columbia or penn.</p>
<p>Generally when a school is farther from NYC, activity dries up but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is not recruited. My friend went down to Duke to recruit last season and came back after interviewing, and completing presentations. They try to set it up so that first/second round interviews can be completed along with presentations and then have the guys that pass come out to NY. Thats generally how it works. It doesn't say anything about recruiting quality. If so then Brown is as recruited as Adelphi. </p>
<p>And JPM isn't one of the banks that gets a lot of Duke grads. I do not think its because JPM doesn't like Duke but more because when people have the choice of going to Morgan Stanley and Goldman they aren't going to choose JPM over it (strictly talking about IBD....trading is desk dependent and position dependent).</p>
<p>I have shown you hard facts about Duke's recruiting. I suggest you read them. Percentage wise Duke is as good as Columbia and as good as Penn sans Wharton (then again Duke isn't a business school). All three are as good as Dartmouth. These schools are generally on equal grounds when it comes to banking recruiting (and this is after speaking with people who actually recruit AS WELL as hard facts which show this).</p>
<p>Recruiting comes from management influence. Duke grads occupy positions by the boatload. The youngest MD and head of rates at Goldman is a Duke grad, John Mack, CEO of Morgan, is a Duke grad (which might be a reason for the increased recruitment by MS) etc. It really makes no sense to argue otherwise. Its generally accepted that Duke is on part with all other ivies (arguably better than a few) sans HYPW when it comes to recruiting. </p>
<p>If you want a non Duke bias, I suggest you check out slippers post (s/he happens to work in the industry as well. she will reaffirm that Duke, Dartmouth etc are all on the same playing field when it comes to recruiting).</p>
<p>BTW where did Columbia come into the equation? Considering how much weight you put on that Mercer Oliver list, Columbia is subpar for getting finance/MC positions. This, btw, is your thinking process. I happen to know that both Duke and Columbia are comparable and receive top notch recruitment from banks and MC firms. </p>
<p>Notice the faults in using one list or one anecdote? When all the data points are seen (and I have presented quite a bit), its pretty obvious that your initial position that Duke isn't recruited is absolutely ridiculous. I do not see the reason to continue this debate...although I shall humor you further if you so please (I can't say I have much to do at the moment).</p>
<p>ColumbiaGrad</p>
<p>First of all, Wharton is better in recruitment than Columbia (weird you even mentioned it). In IB, its Wharton and HYPS, then Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, Brown, and Mich's Ross, etc.</p>
<p>Check out Wharton 06:</p>
<p>40 to Citi, 30 to Goldman...neither are as impressive as the 5 to Blackstone though - and this is just 80% of Wharton that returned results.</p>
<p>In comparison, Duke typically has a range of about 15-25 people going to Goldman, MS, Bain, and Bank of America, and 10-15 at Creduit Suisse, UBS, Citi, and BCG (Deutsche Bank is around 10) - the wide variance represents how much the top employers for Duke grads change from year to year, though always packed with BB finance firms. MS, GS, and Bain are usually at the top, UBS, Lehman, Citi, and CSFB are on the top 5 every other year or so. Deutsche Bank is sponsoring seminars and is attempting to increase its presence as well, but I think most Dukies prefer GS/MS to it.</p>
<p>And of course, don't forget that Duke is still an up-and-coming and younger compared to Columbia.</p>
<p>thethoughtprocess> Don't forget sample size bias. The number of people trying to get into those jobs at Duke are lower and therefore, the smaller absolute numbers. However, as I noted as well, Wharton is right up there with HYP. After that its fair game with Duke and the other ivies (although likely to be better than Brown and Cornell).</p>
<p>mahras just put on a clinic goddayam!</p>
<p>mahras didn't prove anything but just show that he has no real world experience. </p>
<p>from duke's own website, I am sorry I have seen more impressive lists from some other schools. That list does not even show you how many offers were extended. However, some prestigious companies are absent on there. Citibank, Mercer, Mckinsie to say a few. Blackstone is not there either. I don't know why such misconceptions are being perpetuated on this board.</p>
<p>Columbiahopeful, you are the only one creating "misconceptions" and also the only one without a clue.</p>
<p>The Duke Career Fair IS NOT a list of all schools that recruit, it is an open house where alums from companies come back and talk about how great their respective employer is. They also give out free shirts, pens, and folders. Get the facts straight. </p>
<p>It is veeery apparent you don't know what you are talking about. Instead of admitting it though, you continue to post irrelevant links that you don't understand. </p>
<p>Mahras has done a very thorough job showing that you don't know what you are talking about. He has posted several links showing that over 10 Duke grads in '07 are going to Deutsche Bank, and more to other top financial companies (MS, GS, CSFB, Bank of America, Citi, Lehman, Bain, and BCG are the biggest recruiters at Duke, each with over 10 people working there - did you just ignore that?). Citigroup typically takes over a dozen a year on average, one of Duke's biggest employers. This is not as much as Wharton, but comparable and I'm sure atleast as good as Columbia.</p>
<p>Also, on I-banking Oasis, a fairly popular site, someone posted an entire school-by-school comparison of an incoming summer analyst class and you simply ignored it (probably because Duke was high up, which is reality), and instead continue to plead ignorance.</p>
<p>Please go ahead and post a comparative list of Columbia recruits to Wall Street, so we can compare. I'm not sure why you want us to provide the facts to prove you wrong, when its obvious you've done minimal research.</p>
<p>Also, just think about it in terms of common sense - the students at Duke are as good, or even slightly stronger, than students at non-HYP+Wharton schools - which is probably why so many finance companies want to recruit at Duke.</p>
<p>BTW - what sort of real world experience do you have? More than the bankers on IB-Oasis? Do you have more knowledge about where Duke grads go to work than the Duke career center? Or are you just another upset non-HYP/Wharton attendee pretending that Duke isn't just as good as the rest of the Ivies and any other top school just to make yourself feel better. After all, I guess having a school in the South with stronger students than an Ivy kind of burns.</p>
<p>"Organizations that participated in on-campus recruiting are marked with *
New Organizations are marked with"</p>
<p>So buddy, that list includes all companies that recruited on campus. It includes more than just those who came to a career fair. The thing is I keep pointing to the facts and you keep trying to circumvent them with your personal anecdotes.</p>
<p>Except you're an idiot and the asterisk means companies that were both at the career fair and participated in online recruiting. I don't know about McKinsey but Citigroup hosted a few info sessions at the WaDuke and were definitely recruiting. Citigroup's a top 10 employer at Duke, I don't even understand why you're argueing about it.</p>
<p>Obviously Duke places less interns than Harvard, Stanford, or Wharton but it's on about the same tier in terms of numbers as the Ivies. This is how it is in my analyst class.</p>
<p>Columbiahopeful - did you honestly read that statement and think that it was a list of all companies that recruited on campus? That explains a lot - wow, if you actually do go to Columbia that place has certainly gone downhill.</p>
<p>I think personal anecdotes from a Duke undergrad (and facts from places like IB Oasis, or the Duke career center) are much better than your factually incorrect statements.</p>
<p>You aren't good at comprehending statements and data (again please tell me you aren't a Columbia student), so promise to follow along closely. Duke doesn't release specific employment numbers, but I will attempt to develop the list.</p>
<p>In Deutsche Bank's first year of recruiting at Duke (Class of 06) they hired 10 Duke students. However, this didn't place them in the top 10 recruiters of Duke students of '06.</p>
<p>For the classes of '06 and '07, according to the Duke career center, the following companies have been the top 5 or top 10 employers of Duke students, thus hiring more than Deutsche bank in '06, in roughly this order:</p>
<p>Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Bain, Citi, Bank of America, UBS, , Credit Suisse, Lehman Brothers, Boston Consulting Group, and Accenture. </p>
<p>Since this is a ranking, the Minimum numbers would look like this (for the Class of 2006, which was last year):</p>
<p>MS: 20 (Wharton: 20)
Goldman: 19 (Wharton: 30)
Bain: 18
Citi: 17 (Wharton: 40) ---> I'm sure the number for Citi is in the high 20s btw, but thats still anecdotal
Bank of America: 16
UBS: 15
Credit Suisse: 14
Lehman: 13
BCG: 12
Accenture: 11
Deutsche Bank: 10</p>
<p>These are hypothetical numbers showing the minimum possible. The basis for this: each company recruits more Duke students than Deutsche Bank, which recruited 10. Each company also recruits at least one more than the company ranked lower before it. This is, again, not the exact rank of companies. Also, I'm certain more Duke students go to each company then this list - which, again, is the minimum possible. </p>
<p>Here is a quote from Duke:
"Several financial companies, including Bain & Company, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, UBS and Accenture, are among the top employers of Duke grads. Microsoft and IBM are also in the Top 10." <--- this is supplemented by BCG and Lehman who hired more Dukies than Deutsche Bank. </p>
<p>I will insert Wharton's numbers for a few of the largest companies in parenthesis. I'm sure Columbia doesn't do any better - of course, if you'd like to show us some (fake/incorrect/misinterpreted) facts about non-Wharton/HYP Ivies, I'd be happy to look at them.</p>
<p>Until then, I'll assume no one has an edge on Duke save 5-6 schools in the country. Its worth going the extra mile to make a troll look incompetent. Columbiahopeful...you aren't actually going into IB/any financial field, are you?</p>
<p>
[quote]
mahras didn't prove anything but just show that he has no real world experience.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Its your posts that indicate lack of real world experience, not mine. You haven't shown you even have the necessary intelligence to see your false perception in the face of such overwhelming evidence. </p>
<p>You don't know how career fairs work. Companies which have a known history with an institution generally have their own private presentations (aka Citigroup, McK etc). Some do make the trek down to an institution multiple times but why bother when everything can be done in your own presentation? This is why Citigroup etc are not listed.</p>
<p>Why are you arguing this when I have shown a link that indicates that MS, GS, Bain, Accenture, Citi, Bank of America, UBS, CS, BCG, Lehman, and Deutche ALL are top 15 employers of Duke grads. Do you not understand this simple concept? </p>
<p>Let me spell it out for you in the following sentence: "If a company is in the top 15 list of institutions recruiting Duke grads, its recruiting here". </p>
<p>And this lends forward to the following statement: "If such high caliber banks and MCs recruit here, than its a recruiting target school". </p>
<p>Which lends forward to this question: "You are a moron who argues against evidence by posting random links about subjects that you actually have no idea about". </p>
<p>I have seen foolishness on this board but by god you just earned yourself the equivalent of a nobel prize in that field.</p>
<p>Lets see the links I posted: </p>
<p>Duke career fair top recruiting orgs: lists nearly all the major IBs and MCs are top recruiters of Duke students. More so than any other industry. </p>
<p>Link for McK private presentation: shows that this firm has a high record of taking Duke students and therefore, has their own presentations.</p>
<p>News article: Showing DB, ranked below such names as GS, Bain, Accenture, MS, BCG, got 10 Duke grads last year. Therefore, its quite obvious through simple logical reasoning, which you btw supremely lack, that the other firms will have higher numbers.</p>
<p>A breakdown of a summer analyst class at a top two IBD: Duke ranks up there with the rest of them (and beats out many other ivies as well). Obviously it fluctuates year by year but its obvious that Duke is up there. </p>
<p>You have shown the following "evidence":</p>
<p>Link that citigroup doesn't recruit: I refuted that statement when I showed that Citigroup is one of the top recruiters of Duke graduates. </p>
<p>Link that Oliver Wyman doesn't recruit: Many other institutions are not listed (Columbia, Penn CAS, Brown). Therefore, they most likely haven't completed their list or are focused in their recruiting and can't be used as a barometer for recruiting activity. I have shown that firms that are considered "better" than them such as McK, Bain, Accenture and BCG recruit at Duke. </p>
<p>Link to the Duke career fair: You showed that you do not understand how recruiting works. Companies are given private presentation slots when they do their recruiting and therefore, do not need to come to the career fair. </p>
<p>I leave it up to whoever to decide who has presented the better evidence.</p>
<p>One final comment:</p>
<p>The number of graduates from the business-esque Markets and Management course was ~180 last year. Say the number of people going for IB and MC jobs was double that. If the conservative estimate thethoughtprocess put up (just through an arithmetic increase from the base number aka 10 went to DB), then ~50% of the kids are getting into the top X number of banks/MC firms. This doesn't include smaller consulting firms (PA, Parthenon) or boutique banks. Thats pretty damn impressive alone but even more so when that number was derived from very conservative estimates.</p>
<p>Yet another final link: <a href="http://www.econ.duke.edu/News/Newslet/newsletter_fall_2005.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.econ.duke.edu/News/Newslet/newsletter_fall_2005.pdf</a>
Page 8. Talks about what Class of 2005 are doing. Thats just for the econ dept (doesn't include the other social sciences, engineering etc which have many grads feeding into IB and MC). Notice the sizable citigroup figure (from one major alone). So that comment about Citi not recruiting is (yet again) false.</p>
<p>WOW!! All I can say is that I'm so glad that I picked Duke over my state school(University of Michigan).:)</p>