<p>You chose to live by the NACAC standards, then live by them. That's all I'm saying.</p>
<p>
[quote= NACAC site,emphasis added]
Colleges that solicit commitments to offers of Early Action
admission and/or financial assistance prior to May 1 may do so provided those offers include a clear statement that written requests for extensions until May 1 will be granted, and that such requests will not jeopardize a student's status for admission or financial aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Did they follow this? It was my impression from your post that they didn't.</p>
<p>Yankeegirl....I recall something similar with Penn State last year. While Penn State is rolling admissions, that is not the case for the BFA candidates, of which my D was one. They notify them following auditions. My D auditioned at the end of February (her app went in during early Oct.) and was accepted with a talent scholarship (though they offer way less in that area than all her other schools that gave far more but I realize they are a state university) in early March. Many of her acceptances came April 1 but Penn State was calling up in late March and asking her if she was going to accept the scholarship, which in my view, is akin to making a commitment to enroll and she had not even heard from all her schools yet about acceptance. I knew the National Reply Date was May 1 and asked if she could have more time as she had not even heard from her other schools yet as April 1 is the common admissions decision date. They gave her more time but not until May 1. It became a moot point on April 1 when she was accepted at one of her first choices and her decision was then made. I was bothered that PSU would want a student to commit before the typical acceptance date (April 1) of many colleges, and to not have all their cards on the table, but also because May 1 is the National Reply Date. By asking for a commitment to the scholarship, it is like asking for a commitment to attend. I didn't have trouble getting them to give her more time but it wasn't like they gave until May 1 but if need be, I'd have gone that far as that is the standard rule. </p>
<p>Curmudgeon, another example...my daughter was accepted to Central Michigan (rolling) in October and received a scholarship at that time. Over Christmas break, she received notification that she had been selected to receive an additional scholarship, but she had to accept by February 1. Although they indicated in the letter she could request an extension in writing, it was NOT clear to us that a) the extension would be granted; b) that she could request the extension until 1 May; or c) that it would not jeopardize her status in any way. </p>
<p>I'm deeply disappointed in the school...it's a fine state college, and I understand that, in-state, their major competitor is Michigan State. It's hard to fight the "big boys", but to do so at the cost of ethically-suspect techniques and a student's right to make an informed decision has left me more-than-a-little disillusioned.</p>
<p>On another note, I read some more on the NACAC site last night and was amazed to read that postsecondary schools are to "refrain from asking students where else they have applied." This is considered a "best practice" (as opposed to a "mandatory practice"), but I can't think of a single school that DIDN'T ask this question. It was most often asked in casual conversation, but it makes me wonder how well admissions folks are trained in the mandatory and best practices outlined by NACAC. And more importantly, how many 17- and 18-year olds feel coerced into making financial decisions just because they aren't aware that they have rights and there are standards and best practices for colleges?</p>
<p>This is all great information, but I have a question...do you all spend all your time working on figuring all this out??? I have abandoned the corporate world and have the (ahem) luxury of working at home so I can spend more time than most on fun sport of college admission with my S. But really...for a newbie to this, it's overwhelming and if schools and scholarships are playing games, they really are taking advantage of us who go through this only once. </p>
<p>My two cents...back to reading and trying to catch up.</p>
<p>Mezzomom...I SO agree with you. Just on the MT Forum alone, there are families who have had a child accepted to a BFA program already w/ scholarship who are being asked to give their intentions about the scholarship now and these families do not understand their rights to not have to commit to a school before May 1. Some are getting calls and such asking their intentions. </p>
<p>About the "where else have you applied" issue....my second daughter had this question asked on several apps and also on several audition forms at her BFA auditions (not the case for my older D's list of selective colleges). I was bothered that this was on apps or audition forms, truthfully. I guess this is allowed....I did not realize this is listed on the NACAC site. At one school, my D wrote on the form, MOST of the schools she applied to, but not all. She wrote schools in the same range or "lower" but left off three more top rated programs. So, in the audition, when they asked her some questions, they said, "so, how come YOU didn't apply to NYU?" as if to say they were surprised someone like her didn't apply to that "top" BFA program or some such? So, she couldn't then say, "well, actually I did" so she used the question to contrast NYU with this school she was at and by explaining why someone might not choose NYU, she showed why someone WOULD opt to choose this college. She was accepted to this university. Ironically, she ended up attending NYU :D.</p>
<p>Susan, I don't think my daughter ever had to address the "what other schools" question on an app (but I never saw all of her apps, so I can't be sure). When asked the question in conversation, she always answered truthfully and completely, but only because it didn't really reveal much in her situation. Although there is an internal logic in the schools on her list, to the casual observer, her choices are all over the place!</p>
<p>Thank goodness your daughter had the poise to handle the question gracefully at an audition. But how many kids would? And in a high-stress setting like an audition (or even an interview), how many kids wouldn't get flustered and just blurt things out? Maybe kids who have spent time on CC would know to "edit" their answer, but in our immediate area at least, there is very little sophistication about the college process. I think that's why mandatory and best practices exist; if followed, they level the playing field, and don't create disadvantages for students where none should exist. As another poster pointed out to me offline, the colleges have access to sophisticated enrollment management techniques already; why do they have to blur the lines of ethical behavior to get even more of an edge?</p>
<p>I am wondering..what happens if a student accepts the scholarship by the requested date and then subsequently changes thier mind and accepts admission somewhere else? After all, no where does it say that the scholarhip acceptance is a legally binding contract for admission acceptance.</p>
<p>My daughter got the "where else are you applying" question from nearly every school, either on the application or the audition form. She answered truthfully in all cases. Her choices were also all over the place from big reach to extreme safety because we did not know what the competition was going to be like going into the auditions. </p>
<p>It is clear that the schools are using the info for marketing purposes. Some of them went so far as to say things like "75% of the students accepted both by us and by competitor X choose to come here." Perhaps there is a bit of Tufts Syndrome going on as well with colleges saying "anyone applying to Juilliard and Curtis is obviously using us as a safety and admitting them will only serve to lower our yield numbers."</p>
<p>Yankeegirl49, I can't answer in all cases, but in our situation, the request to accept the scholarship also included a request to send in our non-refundable admissions deposit. If my daughter accepted the scholarship by the "deadline" and then decided not to attend, we would lose the deposit. For us, it looked like a lose-lose situation: either lose the $5K scholarship or lose the deposit; when we found out the facts, it quickly turned into a win-win situation for us (but not for the school): we retain the right to accept the scholarship, or we decline the scholarship because money comes through at the other schools to which my daughter has applied.</p>
<p>BassDad, your observation about schools determining if they are a safety is, in my opinion, precisely why the best practices guideline exists. Why should a school have the right to turn down a student just because they think they MIGHT be a safety? It's obviously a part of the enrollment management practice to think this way, but it immediately places any student with a safety or two on their list at a disadvantage. Using your example of Juilliard or Curtis, some students may audition at either just to see if/where they stack up (even though with their pre-screening, being invited to audition is a good indicator), not because they have a burning desire to attend. If admissions professionals can decry the trophy-hunting of some students, why shouldn't the students decry the practice of being unofficially blackballed because they have a nice range of schools to which they are applying? I also object to the practice of asking about other schools on applications and/or audition forms because it de facto encourages students to be less-than-honest. Is that really what schools want in their students?</p>
<p>We broke virtually every enrollment management "rule" during the application process; my daughter was painfully honest about our need for financial aid, about the other schools on her list, and about which schools are her favorites. We have a while to go to see how everything pans out, but she already knows that I am proud of her for being herself throughout the process. She could have gamed the system a bit (I'm on CC enough to be able to pass on the tips and tricks), but throughout it all, she stayed true to herself...and that includes her not-always-diplomatic blunt self. Some, like Susan's daughter, may be more naturally graceful and diplomatic when put on the spot; my daughter is a blurter, so the schools saw exactly that.</p>
<p>Mezzomom, you are right that it does not seem fair to have to commit to a scholarship or put a deposit down before hearing from all one's schools and having all their cards and scholarship offers on the table....after all, this is NOT ED! But schools like PSU were doing just as you say. </p>
<p>I also agree that it seems unfair to ask all the other schools to which someone applied because it is not truly their business to know. They should ask why the student is applying to THEIR school and hope that the student can articulate specific reasons for a good fit. The idea that a school will perceive that a student is using it as a safety or has more selective schools on their list, seems unfair as well because students DESERVE and SHOULD have safeties on their list. After all, they CAN'T count on the Reaches and not even for sure on the matches, and in the case of BFA programs, they are ALL REACHES....every single one had an admit rate of between 5-10%. If a school perceives it is a safety and then does not want to admit the student (for yield reasons), the student could virtually be out their safety school and really needs a safety school (or two!). My older D put as much energy into expressing genuine interest and doing the app for her safeties as for her reaches. One safety gave her a huge scholarship. I don't really like schools to ask where else you applied. When my D filled out the audition forms that asked this, I used the conventional wisdom often expressed on CC (that's where I got the idea, lol) to list most schools, particularly ones in a similar range of selectivity or easier selectivity but not lots of ones "higher" than the school. I did not see it as dishonest. I thought it was not their business. I felt she told most but not all of her schools. When that one college asked why she didn't have a so called more "prestigious" program on her list, a specific one no less, she had to answer in the context of what she had written on the form. I think she used the question as an opportunity to answer what SHOULD have been asked in the first place...."why do you want to go HERE???" and she did so by contrasting this school with NYU and the cons of NYU that did not pertain to the school she was auditioning at that day. I know you say this might have been tough to do but she really knew her schools and had written why she wanted each one as she personalized every application in this way. She is not one to get too flustered in front of people because after all, she is a performer :) and in general a social verbal person. But it was an unexpected question to be sure. If I thought they were going to ask a question about why didn't she apply to NYU, I'd have said list every school you applied to. I did not realize this would come up. She was accepted anyway, so just commenting. I did not think by filling out five of her 8 schools on the form was really "gaming" anything but more that she should not leave the question blank but by the same token, it was none of their business. It was NOT just for marketing purposes because that is better achieved by what my other D's schools did...which was when she turned them down, they sent questionnaires where she answered where she chose to attend, etc. As you can see from Podunk U, they used my D's answers as to where else she applied to probe further. It was a learning experience and interesting to say the least. I'm not into gaming or making things up. I did not think of it as gaming by not revealing every school to which she applied. I thought by telling this school the majority of her college list but not all, it was OK to do but maybe not. I still believe the question was not reasonable and should have dealt more with why she wanted Podunk over her other schools, which is precisely how she attempted to put her answer in context.</p>
<p>Susan, I do hope you understand I wasn't accusing your daughter of gaming. Frankly, even if she had been, I think the schools bring it on themselves, and I don't blame the students (unless they're just out-and-out looking for a way to be dishonest.) I think what your daughter did was perfectly acceptable, because what person wants to set themself up for an instant penalty? It's tough enough on the kids, particularly those going through the audition process or scholarship competition process, and they don't need the added baggage of wondering if their answer was "correct." I think if my daughter had a college list that was geared to a specific degree program like a BFA, I would have strongly advised her to follow the CC advice of listing schools with a similar range of selectivity. But since her list makes sense only to her, she just blurts away! She even had one admissions rep comment that her list was "interesting" which my daughter read to mean "baffling." Like your daughters, she can articulate why each school is on her list, but the reasons are as varied as the schools. I hope my daughter isn't asked the sort of question your daughter was asked at an audition; I can see her either just answering the question OR turning it around and asking why the want to know about her interest in other schools. My daughter is never going to be a candidate for diplomatic service! </p>
<p>I think the post-decline survey is a much better route to take; it eliminates any unwarranted pressure or ethical question marks.</p>
<p>My daughter did somehting simillar. She wants a journalism/communications major and she applied to 9 schools, 8 of them known to have good/great communications depts, the 9th was Columbia (where she would major in English with a focus on writing). The list would make total sense to any school if they looked at the other schools she applied to. When asked what other schools she applied to, she convienently left Columbia off the list, since she didn't want the others to think they were "second choices" or safties to an IVY. I too do not think it is any schools business where else the prospectives have applied and this question shouldn't even be asked.</p>
<p>I think it's important to keep in mind why colleges/universities are doing this and that boils down to two words: Enrollment management. </p>
<p>They are not trying to be devious per se, they are just trying to lock in their freshmen class as early as possible for enrollment management purposes. Remember colleges - even public ones - are businesses and they need to manage and predict their revenues just like every other business.</p>
<p>This is why I have stressed so many times that everyone needs to get educated about enrollment management BEFORE their child starts applying to colleges (I've posted many resources about enrollment management on my website and here on CC in previous posts) so you understand that your child DOES have some power when it comes to college admissions, financial aid, and other aspects of this process. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to assume that colleges have all the power, and miss opportunities in the process. Yes, it takes a bit of time to understand some of this, but at the very least, understand what your child's rights and responsibilities are in the process so you can effectively level the playing field.</p>
<p>This is a fantastic thread. Last year, S was asked by most of his schools about his other applications. He did answer with his entire list. Further, he was offered a large merit scholarship early without the caveat that he could request an extension. We found out from CC that such a request should be honored, we checked to be sure that the school was a member of NACAC (it is a top school, and it was a member), so he requested an extension of the deadline and it was granted immediately. In the end, in fact, he chose to attend this school. Due to the information available on CC, his decision was not rushed because of the financial aid deadline, and he is very happy with his choice.</p>
<p>Carolyn is right - by pushing for an early commitment, colleges are making a sound business decision. It's not dissimilar to a car dealer who tries to pressure you into signing a contract by saying the price he's quoted is only good until Friday. In each case, they know you have other alternatives, and the best way to close the deal is to imply that you are getting a special deal that will expire soon.</p>
<p>I'm not suggesting that colleges don't care about the kids that apply, but once they extend that offer of admission they have a vested interest in encouraging an acceptance. First, if the student was accepted early in the process and was deemed worthy of a merit award, that student is probably someone they want, i.e., has above average stats, performance qualifications, etc. Second, if they get a commitment earlier in the game, they can avoid extending offers of admission to several other students.</p>
<p>So, the not-so-subtle pressure to decide early gets the school more desirable students and improves their yield rate statistic.</p>
<p>Making time-dependent offers to freeze out the competition is a long-time business practice here. Normally, we accept that as typical. ("Order in the next 30 minutes and we'll add two additional Ginsu knives to your order - absolutely free!", "Another couple is scheduled to look at the house this afternoon, sign the contract now so you don't miss this great opportunity!", etc.)</p>
<p>When it affects our kids' life choices, though, the approach seems a bit more sinister.</p>
<p>Sometimes it is to the student's advantage to reply early, even if the deposit may be lost. When my first son was applying to top Computer Science schools, he got his acceptance very early (November) from U of Illinois (UIUC.) As it seemed possible he might go there (the other big CS schools being crap shoots that cost much more and didn't tend to give merit aid) we sent in his acceptance & deposit money. The point was to be able to reserve space in the "good" dorm nearer the engineering quad. For us, it was worth it even if he didn't end up going there and we lost the deposit; if he did go, it would be a much better freshman year. I don't recall if UIUC knew what other schools he was applying to, but they kept offering him more scholarships until by May 1, it was an easy decision! Illustrates the wisdom of having a safety you love--and he still loves it after two years.</p>
<p>We did reply early to one of my d's schools. It clearly stated that the deposit was fully refundable until May 1st- so we saw no down side in accepting the offer. There was a merit scholarship involved with this school too which prompted us to reply early. Our guess is that they wanted to get an idea as to the # of people who may take them up on the acceptance/merit award as this school has rolling admissions. This school's policy may have been the exception though, as most of the other acceptance letters we received say the deposit is non-refundable but there were no merit/scholarship offers to consider with those acceptances. For the remaining schools, we are taking a wait and see method until a final decision is made.</p>
<p>A word of caution regarding schools that pressure kids to accept admissions offers and put down a "will be attending" deposit before May 1 by saying doing so will secure housing priority. </p>
<p>Technically, students are NOT supposed to double deposit, and some schools have recently become more stringent about this, in some cases rescinding admissions offers if they discover double depositing has occurred. </p>
<p>Therefore, if you are going to do what Mommusicmom and Marny's kid's did, and send in an acceptance of the admissions offer in order to get a priority housing slot, DO NOT do this at more than one school and be sure to let the early deposit school know that you will not be attending BEFORE you send in a deposit to another school. </p>
<p>While schools are tolerant by necessity of last minute decisions not to attend prompted by getting in off the wait list at other schools, they are increasingly less tolerant of students sending multiple deposits to hold spots until the students make a final decision between schools. (Note, I am not talking about strictly HOUSING deposits here, which many schools do request early, but rather schools that ask students to accept the admissions offer early in order to get housing priority)</p>
<p>Additionally, read very carefully the rules about getting in line for priority housing. In some cases, it may possible to negotiate with the school to ONLY send in a deposit to hold housing position without sending in the deposit signifying you will attend. This is probably always worth a shot when you are told "you must send in both the housing deposit and your deposit to hold your place in the class in order to get priority housing."</p>
<p>I was pleasantly surprised by the way the school my daughter will be attending handled this --- and they do have a housing crunch due to rising popularity. They request that students send back their housing preference forms immediately if there is any possibility they will attend next fall. There is no deposit required to hold housing. The student is then given until May 1 to send in the admissions acceptance deposit. After all forms are in after May 1, the school AVERAGES the date the two forms are sent in to assign a place in the housing queue for each new freshman (i.e., if you send in the housing form in early January and acceptance form in early April, your priority housing date would be sometime in late February. Send both in April and your priority housing date will be April) This strikes me as a fairer way of doing things then demanding non-refundable deposits accepting the ADMISSIONS offer before May 1.</p>