<p>Stop right there. No one said anything about the college “providing” an attorney. I, for one, am talking about students being able to have counsel at formal disciplinary hearings where evidence is being presented and witnesses are testifying.</p>
<p>In your example, the student is–conveniently–sounding awfully guilty. What if what he said was, “We met at a party, we had some drinks and were dancing and making out on the dance floor. Everyone else could see us, and they will tell you about it. I asked her back to my room, and she said yes. When we got there, we made out and drank some more. I guess we had sex. We were both pretty drunk by that point, and I don’t really remember it too well, but I know I didn’t make her have sex. She seemed to want to as much as I did. She didn’t say no or stop or anything. I don’t understand why she is saying I raped her.”</p>
<p>According to some people here, when two drunk kids have sex, HE is necessarily a rapist simply because she is female and he is male. Mini would apparently have this kid expelled in a nano-second.</p>
<p>Hunt, in the real world, there is a sliding scale of penalties. If the disciplinary committee thinks that the young woman is just a tad more believable than the young man, it doesn’t have to expel him. It can do something less onerous.</p>
<p>It can, for example, require that he sign a contract prohibiting him from the use of alcohol and containing an agree to submit to random testing. It could require him to take an alcohol abuse education course. it could require him to do community service. It can do a lot of things. </p>
<p>Frankly, in the case you describe, I’d impose the same conditions on the young woman. I know in the real world that doesn’t happen–but I think it should. </p>
<p>But now, let me let you in on a little “fact.” in a startlingly percentage of date rape cases, the alleged victim is drunk. The alleged assailant may have had a couple of drinks but he is not drunk. When it’s a “real” date rape case, the perp, who is usually a junior or senior, plies his intended victim with alcohol with the intent of having sex with her.She’s a freshman or more rarely, a first semester sophomore. It’s the old “candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker” scenario. The accused is FULLY AWARE that if the young woman were sober, she would not agree to have sex. And a surprisingly large number of the young men who do this don’t think they have done anything morally wrong.</p>
<p>You can all look up the Code of Conduct and Regulations for whatever college or university. I think you actually have to read a few to understand.</p>
<p>*If you are using the preponderance of the evidence standard, though, if the fact-finder deems her even a little more believable than him, he’s “convicted.” *</p>
<p>There’s a whole lotta context that has to be built first. She doesn’t go and say, Billy pinched me and the college doesn’t say, Oh, she’s got a little bruise there, for sure, so we’ll expel Billy.</p>
<p>Btw, depending on the complaint and the college itself, the penalty can be as little as mediation. Where is everyone getting the idea a confusing situation automatically leads to expulsion?</p>
I don’t doubt for a minute that this happens, but I also think it probably does happen with some regularity that accusations are made after situations that are a lot more gray. In both cases, drinking is a big element.</p>
<p>Is it in fact the case that the disciplinary committee might do something less onerous? I don’t thinks would be the case at a school with a strict honor code, for example. And anyway, isn’t it the less onerous consequences that have led to the demand for these tougher standards in the first place?</p>
<p>Consolation, read the entirety of the links tsdad posted. It makes it clear that the issue is not whether the accuser can be questioned but whether the accused has the right to do it personally.</p>
<p>Yes, it’s a fact that at many colleges the disciplinary committee can do lots of things that are less onerous. They often do. Requiring attendance at an alcohol abuse education program is a fairly common punishment. Community service is another.</p>
<p>As I understand it, it isn’t the existence of less onerous punishments that caused a public outcry. It’s the fact that a lot of universities were hiding the data. A young woman wouldn’t be aware that there were 15 sexual assaults in the dorms on her campus the previous year because those sexual assaults were dealt with in “confidential” proceedings which were never made public. Nor would she learn that six different young women had alleged that they were raped the previous year at parties given by a particular frat house. If she knew, she might choose to skip its parties. </p>
<p>It also didn’t help matters when it came out that there were students who had been charged with multiple sexual offenses and never disciplined. </p>
<p>It really was the policy of many universities to encourage women who were raped to go to a rape counseling center on campus. Once there, they were encouraged to file charges in a university forum. When they read the small print, they found out that they had agreed to submit the claim to university forums and in return for the university’s wonderful willingness to investigate their claims privately, they agreed that they would not make their accusations public and/or report them to the police.</p>
<p>In the case I am aware of, the girl had not gone to any health clinic and refused to speak with police. One witness saw the girl earlier, drunk and with that guy. Later, when the door was closed and noises could be heard, the witness assumed that sex was going on. The committee was prepared to rule the “case” unprovable. </p>
<p>That’s important. Here’s the rub. According the the rules for that college, refusing to speak on your own behalf can be construed as an admission of guilt. The guy refused to say anything- even whether sex had occured- nor that it had not. The committee gave him several chances- at more than one meeting. In the end, the committee had to follow its guidelines that the guy had offered them nothing to go on. </p>
<p>The guy was suspended until the girl graduated.</p>
<p>I have reread all of tsdad’s posts in this thread, and I find no links. I have reread the letter in question, posted by someone else, and I see no reference to representation by anyone, whether attorney or not, at hearings.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is clearly unacceptable.</p>
<p>FWIW, I have little doubt that the unreported “date rape” cases on college campuses far, far outnumber the false accusation cases; however, I am somewhat concerned by a mentality I have seen that encourages women to view themselves as “victims” and to inflate incidents that many women view as a simple annoyance–having someone try to grab your ass in a crowded rock concert being one I have personally experienced–into “sexual assault,” this arriving at what I consider to be ludicrously inflated statistics. A lot of it has to do with definitions.</p>
<p>This is about all it says- see how much is left to the colleges?</p>
<p>*While OCR does not require schools to permit parties to have lawyers at any stage of the proceedings, if a school chooses to allow the parties to have their lawyers participate in the proceedings, it must do so equally for both parties. Additionally, any school-imposed restrictions on the ability of lawyers to speak or otherwise participate in the proceedings should apply equally.OCR strongly discourages schools from allowing the parties personally to question or cross-examine each other during the hearing. *</p>
<p>Also: A number of different acts fall into the category of sexual violence, including rape, sexual assault, sexual battery, and sexual coercion. All such acts of sexual violence are forms of sexual harassment covered under Title IX.
I don’t think this includes ass-grabbing.</p>
<p>Lookingforward, I don’t think ass-grabbing is sexual assault or battery either. But many people do. This was thoroughly discussed in the another thread a while ago, and it was firmly stated by several people that “most” women have been “sexually assaulted.” The example given was being fondled on a crowded subway. Something that I equate with having one’s ass grabbed at a rock concert. To me, that does not rise to the level of sexual assault.</p>
<p>To return to the representation question, numerous people have reported here that their child faced disciplinary action by a college, and none that I can recall were allowed to take counsel into the hearing, or have anyone else speak for them or question witnesses for them, although some were allotted a person to advise them on the process ahead of the hearing. So it would appear that, unless colleges use different rules for sexual assault cases, it is likely that neither accused nor accuser has the right to ask the other any questions at all under the OCR rules. I should clarify that I think I understand the reason why the OCR discourages having the accused and accuser question each other, and would agree that it is a bad idea. I think that the fault lies more with the colleges in preventing them from having some arm’s-length mechanism for asking questions.</p>
<p>People are often advised to have a friend accompany them to the doctor’s office when going in to discuss serious issues, because it is so difficult for most people to think clearly or express their concerns, or even SEE the implications of what they are hearing in such a situation. I would think that the same would apply to a student in a disciplinary hearing, whether the accuser or the accused. It just seems like bad policy for all concerned.</p>
<p>When I was in community college, I worked for a semester in the library. One guy whom I knew from being in some courses together (but not otherwise) would sometimes stop by to talk to me and work on homework. Several times he exposed himself to me in the library. I never reported it to anyone. It seemed like it would just be embarrassing to have to repeat the story over and over. I don’t know how I would have proven it anyways. He was pretty creepy, but he never actually touched me.</p>
<p>I don’t think that ass-grabbing is “allowed” either. It is obviously not something that should be done, unless it is play between a couple. For me, it just didn’t rise to the level of “sexual assault.” I don’t consider myself to be a “sexual assault victim” because of it. Someone else might.</p>
<p>I think I would have either reported a guy who exposed himself to me in those circumstances, or told him in no uncertain terms that if he did it again I was going to call the police. (That’s what I did with a heavy-breathing phone caller after just hanging up on him a number of times, and he never called again.)</p>
<p>Consolation, in answer to your question in post 170, I don’t think the RA was guilty of the criminal charge of rape BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. I do, however, think he acted wrongfully. I think he was PROBABLY aware that the young woman MIGHT be under the influence of something and thus incapable of consent. (There was no prior relationship between the two.) </p>
<p>So,apparently, did the university. I suspect that the fact that the senior woman corroborated the complainant’s story that she had told the accused she thought her drink had been spiked and wanted company on the way home and chose him because she recognized him as an RA in her dorm had a lot to do with its decision. </p>
<p>He made a big song and dance out of the fact he wasn’t her assigned RA. The disciplinary committee felt that the fact she chose him to accompany her because she knew he was a RA and thus felt he would be trustworthy and TOLD him that’s why she was asking him and that she TOLD him she thought her drink had been spiked put him on notice that she might not be capable of giving consent. </p>
<p>He was suspended and barred from setting foot on the campus until she graduated. He was a senior. She was a freshman. </p>
<p>Personally I think it was a good decision. YMMV.</p>
<p>This is just to add more votes from loyal lawyers’ crowd. They do not have enough income, they need more! Many latest regualtions are done keeping 2012 in mind. Very obvious, but nobody needs to share my opinion as I do not need to share anybody else’s.</p>
<p>I’ve got some catching up to do but how does one person force another person to drink? I don’t know about everyone, but I’m a woman and very few people including men haver ever gotten me to do something I didn’t want to do. I know I’m strong and strong willed, but goodness most of othe posts here make women sound like these shrinking violet little ignorant children and boys sound like these manly life experienced gorillas and as a woman I find that offensive. Life isn’t that clean. Girls drink and do stupid, stupid things like hang all over guys like a blanket when they’ve been drinking but that doesn’t mean they can turn around and accuse someone else of “making them drink too much” which caused silly behavior on their part that was mis-interpreted by the guy. No one sat on them and poured alcohol down their throats. Bad behavior cuts both ways. I seen both bad behavior by boys and bad behavior by girls. No one smells like a rose in these types of situations. If it’s rape, then take it to the police.</p>
<p>And no, I guess subway creeps I never thought of as “sexual harassment” I thought of them as creeps and either ground my heel into their arch or tried to moveaway from them. Grabbers are gross, too, and an annoyance.</p>
<p>I do also agree and think the RA should have been disciplined if in fact the girl told him she suspected her drink had been spiked and he didn’t back off and because she asked him for help because of his capacity as an RA. This was all business and the RA was over the line.</p>
<p>Ass grabbing. I didn’t finish that thought. I think it could qualify as an unwanted touch. We’ve had cases here of serial ass-grabbers and the police were quite interested. I think it defnitely could contribute to sexual harassment charges if done repeatedly or as part of some other harassment. Truth is, depending on who and where, we might not mind. But you have to account for people who would- and the context. On the dance floor? In a hallway? Does it contribute to a climate of fear?</p>
<p>Exposure. Three times, over the years, I’ve had the unwanted privilege of seeing more than I needed to, in places where I could feel threatened- not the accidental towel-drop, not a friend getting changed, with no modesty, not catching a guy coming out of the shower. Two were “fiddling.” The issue here is that often rapists go through an early phase of exposing themselves to female strangers. Not all exposers turn into rapists- but I’d generally report it. For the good of others.</p>
<p>Bad behavior. Yes there are times when a female is equally or more guilty. The pendulum always swings wide, before it settles. Once, the woman was automatically suspect- what did she do to bring this on? Now, the opposite extreme- sort of, if the guy is not absolutely sure, it’s “No.” Or even, if she says yes but you doubt her clarity of mind, it’s No. Or, if you don’t know her well enough to be sure she won’t have morning-after second thoughts, it’s No.</p>