Warning For All College Men

Parents Forum
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<p>Vomiting is an extreem case of it but in most cases it’s the situation depicted in “The Big Bang Theory” encounter. Penny was able to talk with Leonard but actually didn’t have full control of her action. She was vulnerable and would consent to anything Leonard would have asked or done.
It was Leonard’s ethics that prevented the regretful encounter.</p>

<p>Most moms here would say Penny should not be in this situation to begin with but I would say men need to be Leonard to begin with.
Because in the opposite case Penny won’t be able to take advantage of Leonard.</p>

<p>Let’s make sure we raise more Leonards, who have ethics to prevent these situations to begin with.</p>

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<p>Sometimes guys behavior is clearly inappropriate and sometimees their behavior can be misinterpreted. The former should have consequences, for sure. For sake of argument/discussion, what should a male do if, for example, a massage therapist accuses him of touching her inappropriately, when the male client adamently denies it? How does he “prove” himself innocent if he is being accused of this?</p>

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<p>What motivation would a therapist have to falsely accuse a client?</p>

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<p>how do I ‘prove’ myself innocent in a civil case if my neighbor accuses me of keying his car, and his car is keyed, and I happen to own a set of keys? </p>

<p>he said she said is a problem in civil law, where preponderance of evidence is the standard. Preponderance does not, AFAICT (IANAL) mean that the defendnant has to PROVE themselves innocent. It just means that proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not required.</p>

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<p>Hmm, EK… they might consider blackmailing the client, asking for hush money.</p>

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<p>I’m more used to Geometry than Theology but here I did mean “Angel”.</p>

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<p>So how does a guy “prove” that he wasnt glaring inappropriately at a girl, or whatever might come under the auspices of this new regulation?</p>

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<p>Like most adults here, Ive taken sexual harassment training on more than one occasion. Im pretty sure once incident of glaring would not be sexual harrasment, unless it was sustained, etc. Theres a whole procedure where the victim is supposed to communicate that he/she is uncomfortable, etc. </p>

<p>Theres a huge scare meme about sexual harrasment laws a fascism that AFAICT is simply not founded in reality.</p>

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<p>^^^:I think sexual harrassment courses are quite useful and might make a useful addition to sex education in high school.</p>

<p>I think young men sometime oblivious to what might be considered as a sex crime.</p>

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<p>Part of a general trend of certain segments of the media taking factoids out of context and piecing them together dishonestly to make a larger, ideologically driven claim of (generally reverse) persecution. See post1. See the original Berkowitz article in the wsj, the Barone bit and others. See some of the twisted fuss in the history of this thread. See other threads. </p>

<p>Though I have clung to the actual writing in the OCR documents, I think college men are in a bind and it’s not just fine to state that- it’s mandatory that we have- and continue to have- the deep discussions with them. They are semi-free, with a lifestyle presented to them, few (if any) of the real responsibilities of adulthood. They will make mistakes. Just as we did. And, same for our daughters. We can’t knee-jerk defend that ours won’t make mistakes (of whatever sort) and assume it’s a feminist or misandrist conspiracy or see other goblins in the closet.</p>

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<p>sexual harrasment isnt necessarily a sex crime. Its a form of discrimination (esp under US employment law)</p>

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<p>Agree, BBD, that things have been taken to the extreme,hence my hypothetical question. but according to the OP,

So how’s a guy to defend himself against accusations of staring? Does the (for example) female have to first tell the (asumed) male that she finds it uncomfortable? Is the standard in colleges the same as as in a work environment, or is this new guideline different for colleges?</p>

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<p>Hear Hear for germ phobia! Not sure if that does holds up during states of inebriation…?</p>

<p>Anyway, this is all very complex. We as parents are letting our kids go off on their own at this in-between childhood and adulthood age. They are fully equipped with hormones. Perhaps not fully-equipped with wisdom and good judgment and good decision-making.</p>

<p>Setting them up for a safe and fulfilled time during this phase is a huge challenge. It is also a huge challenge for society as a whole and the institutions within it (the colleges, the legal system, the US gov, etc.)</p>

<p>Humanities scholar here! Development into an adult has been treated differently by different cultures and at different times in history. Sciences like psychology and neurology and human anatomy are informing us now. Parenting is also dictated by varying combinations of cultural mores, economics, religion, philosophy, political science… Anthropologically, while there are universals, raising kids and educating them and seeing them as full-grown is quite culture-bound. The US is a melting pot of these various cultures, and they even clash here a bit. But the ways unis work, the way educationally systems work, the drinking situation, the attitude towards sexual activity in youngsters is all part of each culture. </p>

<p>As parents, we can hope to instill good values that are little voices in their heads- as in the super-ego or the conscience- help them stop and think: is this safe? is this fair? is this good for me? is this good for the other person?
Deferring gratification is a very important activity, but it is not easy for those without fully developed frontal lobes, or those of any age who are in an inebriated state.</p>

<p>Being irresponsible is not a crime or misdemeanor in and of itself, but its probably a good idea for us as a society and as parents to help youngsters develop an awareness of when behaviors are irresponsible.
And, importantly, what damage to oneself and others irresponsible behavior can cause. The consequences, both natural and institutional.</p>

<p>I wish I knew how better to help my kids be more conscious of all of this, or maybe more automatically self- questioning. It is such a challenge in a time and a place which seem to condone total freedom, and support it as a natural path to growth and self-awareness.</p>

<p>I truly believe that each of us is doing the best we can, and that we can learn from each other about this. Mistakes happen.</p>

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<p>jym, we’ve been there. Staring can be a component of sexual harassment. In itself, it is not necessarily harassment. There has to be a “hostile climate” created. And so on. It’s in the Dear Colleague Letter and the Guidelines.</p>

<p>My apologies- I don’t mean this to sound offensive- but what if a kid’s “germ phobia” made him a target of bullying?</p>

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<p>“Does the (for example) female have to first tell the (asumed) male that she finds it uncomfortable?”</p>

<p>If I remember my training correctly, yes she does, in a work context. If she doesnt want to tell him directly there are other venues. If the behavior were much more egregious, that might not be necessary, but for staring Im pretty sure it would be (though of course theres staring and theres staring) </p>

<p>"Is the standard in colleges the same as as in a work environment, or is this new guideline different for colleges? "</p>

<p>Im pretty sure from whats been quoted that the only things new are the evidence standards and appeal procedures, NOT the definition of whats harassment. Whether the old standards for harassment are the same as in a work environment, I do not know.</p>

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<p>Regarding the Lack case, from what I’ve read here I cannot summon much sympathy for the alleged “victim”. People who drink to the point of blacking out just don’t have any credibility, in my view, when making criminal allegations. If there were third-party witnesses that the boy raped her while she was fully unconscious . . . then yes, that would be actionable. But her recall is completely unreliable. How on earth could Brown or anyone have prosecuted this? Ridiculous.</p>

<p>What if she came to and found her wallet missing. Would she then be justified in accusing the last person she recalls being with of stealing it?</p>

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<p>“I think sexual harrassment courses are quite useful and might make a useful addition to sex education in high school.” </p>

<p>DD’s youth group (United Synagogue Youth) did a whole discussion session once on this, integrating it with teaching Jewish values, etc. Im not sure if it was in response to scandals involving sexual harassment in youth groups, or to a feeling (probably justified) in the Conservative/Masorti movement that we have (unlike the Orthodox) neglected teaching restraint in this area, and that we can and should teach our children to live with dignity, a lesson both from our own tradition and from some segments of modern feminism. especially since this is a group of people headed off to college.</p>

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<p>“My apologies- I don’t mean this to sound offensive- but what if a kid’s “germ phobia” made him a target of bullying?”</p>

<p>I was using “phobia” loosely, perhaps germ avoidance is better. Bullying is never okay.</p>

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<p>BBD
From the DCL: fwiw
OCR issues this and other policy guidance to provide recipients with information to assist them in meeting their obligations, and to provide members of the public with information about their rights, under the civil rights laws and implementing regulations that we enforce. OCR’s legal authority is based on those laws and regulations. This letter does not add requirements to applicable law, but provides information and examples to inform recipients about how OCR evaluates whether covered entities are complying with their legal obligations</p>

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<p>“Regarding the Lack case, from what I’ve read here I cannot summon much sympathy for the alleged “victim”. People who drink to the point of blacking out just don’t have any credibility, in my view, when making criminal allegations. If there were third-party witnesses that the boy raped her while she was fully unconscious .”</p>

<p>by his admission, he had sex with her. that was not in dispute. By his admission, he found her lying next to her pool of vomit. His defense was that it was consensual, based on what he said happened after she got up (she didnt remember what happened), He was NOT “found guilty of rape” if he were, six months suspension from school would be an unconscionably light sentence, dont you think? </p>

<p>" . . then yes, that would be actionable. But her recall is completely unreliable. How on earth could Brown or anyone have prosecuted this? Ridiculous." </p>

<p>Her having vomited was not based on her recall (she recalled NOTHING). </p>

<p>"What if she came to and found her wallet missing. Would she then be justified in accusing the last person she recalls being with of stealing it? "</p>

<p>suppose someone was lying drunk in their own vomit. The person who has their wallet SAYS that they handed the wallet over as a free gift. Id think she has some justification in thinking it stolen.</p>