Warning on Recruiting

<p>
[quote]
However, there is no way in hell that they will use up one of these "definites" on a kid who has not applied ED.

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<p>Given that likely letters go out before ED apps are due, there is a way in hell, SB. Of course, there are telephone discussions confirming interest. One international athlete I know got a likely letter in Ocotber--with an SAT clause. She took the SATs, scored over 700 on everything and bada bing.</p>

<p>Tiger Woods got a letter from Stanford when he was 11.</p>

<p>However, to be fair, these 'golden' October likely letters to top schools and Ivies seem to be reserved for Tiger Woods types, Olympic caliber athletes and All-Americans.</p>

<p>No, my kid did not receive a likely letter, but so what. </p>

<pre><code> In my mind, and I believe in the mind of most people, if a
representative of a school makes a statement, that is unequivocal,
it is not unreasonable for one to take it at face value. In law an agent
with apparent authority can bind the principal.

We assumed that good news=acceptance. How could anyone reach
a different conclusion?
</code></pre>

<p>1 - not all schools send likely letters
2 - if the representative of the school IS NOT the adcom - they DO NOT have the authority - unequivocally - in college - a coach is not an official adcom agent and cannot bind the principal.
3 - never assume anything - until the deal is signed - sealed - and delivered and in your hands - in writing</p>

<p>Coaches being 'blindsided' and 'blown away' by he adcom happens more often that it should or than you would think. And yes - there are political agendas within the adcom's - maybe they don't like the baseball coach or something in how a program is run or the team/coach has poor performance - so they deny admission to the 'preferred' recruits or even ALL the recruits of that coach- believe me - it happens. There are NO assurances until the envelope arrives and it says - congrats - you are accepted.</p>

<p>Many of the high profile D1 schools have their picks all wraped up and under their xmas trees very early - these athletes have been highly recruited - scouted - and all that jaz - have their acceptance and scolarships with a big red bow wraped around the package - and wait til national signing day - yes even the TOP athletes have a date by which they must make a committment - the processhas been going on for many months or even years.</p>

<p>Because recruiting is very different in strategy - depending on the level of the school - it will be different at every single school. High profile D1's will recruit with a vengence and those high power coaches have more leway - many times getting exactly what they want - but the competition between them is viscious. D2 and D3's recruiting strategies are very different - either less $$ or no $$ being allowed to be offered - and in many cases the student plays just for the love of the sport. It also depends on the needs of the schools - ya know the tuba player vs the baseball player story - with both students being fairly equal in all respects - the school band REALLY needs a tuba player vs the baseball team already has some decent players - well guess who gets accepted - the tuba player - adcom's decision!!!</p>

<p>For the mid range - many are 'encouraged to apply' and should do so early in the process - the coach will usualy inform the app when to apply by. </p>

<p>For other schools - a student may not know until mailing day - end of march maybe - when schools send out all their acceptance letters - for example - all at once - unless they hit it lucky and and are informed early spring - which is always nice.</p>

<p>SO..... until it is in writing - it isn't so.</p>

<p>My experience dictates that one should never assume anything, yet I believe that to the uninitiated if a school representative indicates that a kid is in it is not unreasonable for the athlete or his family to take the statement at face value. Even if the statement comes from a coach.</p>

<p>There is no question that coaches are able to yield enormous influences on adcoms, otherwise, athletes would be treated the same as any other applicant. </p>

<p>A coach is an employee of a school, and as such the school should not be able to absolve itself of all of his misrepresentations. I just feel that not enough is being done by schools to reign in their overzealous behavior. </p>

<p>I really don't know about the significance of likely letters etc., nor frankly do I care, the point of my original post was to alert those of us who tend to take people at their word, that when dealing with coaches one should keep a healthy dose of skepticism.</p>

<p>Cheers, I was talking about those borderline cases, not auto admits or superstars.</p>

<p>If I am a coach and the adcom will let me pick three kids, I am going to pick the three that I know will also pick me. Why use my influence to rescue a borderline applicant only to have him go elsewhere in the end?</p>

<p>I don't know if this will help anyone here. however we did have an experience with this with my older sister. she committed to Georgetown for a full athletic scholarship at the end of her junior year. it was for volleyball, and granted they aren't the best team in the country, and she wasn't the best player in this country (or very close to that) I think it may give many an idea that if a school is that interested in your son or daughter, they would have let you known.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Coaches being 'blindsided' and 'blown away' by he adcom happens more often that it should or than you would think. And yes - there are political agendas within the adcom's - maybe they don't like the baseball coach or something in how a program is run or the team/coach has poor performance - so they deny admission to the 'preferred' recruits or even ALL the recruits of that coach- believe me - it happens. There are NO assurances until the envelope arrives and it says - congrats - you are accepted.

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<p>There are other less cynical reasons coaches can get surprised by admission decisions. The coach is only worried about their sport while the athletic director and the adcoms are worried about the school in total. Many schools (IVYs, top LACs) have overall targets for the school (overall athletic recruits, and recruits at particular levels of academic performance) ... a coach could lose lose one of their top recruits because when considering the whole school recruits from other sports were given that slot ... I would think this is a bigger issue the lower the prestige of a sport at a particular school (football will win out over track at most schools, for example)</p>

<p>eskimo: if you are really concerned with misleading recruiting, or perhaps a coach lying, contact the NCAA & see if there is a reporting mechanism re: recruiting communications & student contact. Place your concerns with an authority who may be able to do something or put a school on warning that their coaches are acting inappropriately.
<a href="http://www.ncaa.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.ncaa.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>First, all of this varies by school & sport. but here is how I think it works in many places, based on my D's recruitment experiences as well as based on the insider info I got from a good friend of mine who is D1 volleyball coach.</p>

<p>Most coaches have some sort of understanding with the admission office. There is a "bar" for SATs & grades below which the school won't go, even for a great athlete. This "bar" is a different height for each school and each sport, and maybe even a different height for a major superstar player-- you have to ASK. There is also, in non-Ivy D-1, a # of scholarship dollars that a D-1 Coach has to "spend" to entice players. Finally, in some schools but not all, there is a # of coach-selected automatic admits-- of course provided that these kids are over the school's academic "bar." </p>

<p>Beyond this, the coach can still give 'support' to a ranked list of players-- players the coach does not intend to use a coach-selected admission slot on, but would still like to have for a deeper team, if possible.</p>

<p>To illustrate, say it is D-3 mens basketball at a strong academic school with a great basketball program. Let's say the coach has 4 designated picks (for kids whose grades & SATs are sufficiently high.) If your kid's grades & SATs are "above the line", and your kid is the #2 most wanted kid, the coach can say with a high degree of certainty that your kid will probably get in, because the coach knows that he would use one of the coach's designated slots on you to make sure that you are admitted.</p>

<p>However, this is NOT a 100% guarantee. OBVIOUSLY the adcom would reserve the right to ding the kid due to a dip in grades, any infractions at school, etc. Also, the coach could get fired or something, and a new coach might have other favored applicants. And finally, three better players could arrive at any time & thus bump you out of the top four recruits. But barring something like that, the kid would be very secure.</p>

<p>Now, if your kid was #5 on the list-- the coach could still be very, very enthusiastic (not knowing if one of the #1-4 kids might have their eye on another school & thus free up a slot...) Or if your kid was #8 but had superior academics that would qualify him for admission <em>even without</em> basketball, the coach might also be very enthusiastic-- thinking, this kid'll get in without my help... & I want him to choose my school when he does. In this case, the enthusiasm might be high but, for a variety of fluke reasons, the admission might not actually happen, and the coach would not be using a slot for you.</p>

<p>Finally, one of the "top 4" kids could be admitted for a whole different reason, without the coach's help (for example, one could be a URM or a development admit.) This would then free up a coach-designated slot for the #5 most-wanted player.</p>

<p>Basically, the coach is playing out a hand of cards--- he has a few aces, and he knows how he hopes to play the hand out, but the cards that others (students, adcom) play will potentially change the plan. However he plays the hand out, he wants the maximum number of most impactful players to attend his school. </p>

<p>This is why most coach slots are doled out in ED. If the coach uses up one of four precious aces to get a kid in, he wants to know that kid is definitely coming.</p>

<p>The kids, too are playing a hand of cards. The recruit may be courting a number of schools & chatting with a number of coaches. He may be telling 5 coaches that their schools are the "top of his list." So it happens on both sides. It is always going to be a matter of trust until the application/admission is locked in. </p>

<p>An ED application is a committment to attend the school. A likely letter or actual admission is a committment to admit the kid. Short of that, nothing on either side is 100%. It is a courtship process on both sides.</p>

<p>I would say that before applying ED anywhere, an athlete needs to have a frank talk with the coach about exactly where he stands, exactly how much power the coach has and doesn't have, exactly what unexpected disasters could derail the process, etc. The athlete could also speak to current players about their recruitment experiences and the credibility of the coach. After these conversation, & if this school is the kid's #1 school, then go ahead... knowing the unexpected <em>could</em> happen.</p>

<p>Some coaches asked us for transcripts, SATs & grades early in the recruitment process, while others did not. (I now suspect the coaches who did not ask for grades & scores were either not that interested in my D as a player, or did not <strong>have</strong> any coach auto-admit slots to use on her-- so the info was not relevant to them). A couple of coaches (at safety level schools) assured us my D would be admitted, with or without them, because her stats were so high for the school. <em>Many</em> coaches said "top of my list" in a generic way. Only a few coaches were specific with # rank on recruitment priority list, & amount of "push" they would/could give. </p>

<p>Nobody said it was 100%-- but these few frank, explicit coaches were the ones we clicked with and trusted, because they didn't BS around. In the end D was admitted ED2 to a school with a frank, no-BS coach, but alongside that app, she still applied to 5 other RD schools. She was clear that though there would be strong support & an excellent chance of admission ED2, the coach was <strong>not</strong> the adcom and there was no guarantee until the admisision letter was in hand.</p>

<p>SBMom: You post above tracked my son's experience with at least two Div. III schools he was recruited by.</p>

<p>SBmom ... great post ...</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most coaches have some sort of understanding with the admission office. There is a "bar" for SATs & grades below which the school won't go, even for a great athlete. This "bar" is a different height for each school and each sport, and maybe even a different height for a major superstar player-- you have to ASK

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My understanding of the IVY league process is that there is a minimum bar below which no athletes will be admitted ... and there are also other bars at higher levels (by sport and in total with the total being lower than the total of all the individual sports ... the school can pick where to ficus) ... and this is a league wide agreement. So a school may accept a couple kids with pretty low qualification, a few more with better qualifications, a few more with qualification on the end of their non-recruit acceptances, etc ... there is a ladder of academic bands the sports and schools manage.</p>

<p>Lots of great posts...</p>

<p>Knowing what we experienced with the recruiting process with our daughter who is currently at Brown and observed with a nephew who was recruited to play baseball at a D1 university, the bottom line advice I can give is that you have to get the acceptance in writing as early as you can. Don't listen to the coach who says that it can't be done because I know that it can. You may have to push hard for it, but if they really want you they can do it. Our daughter received an acceptance letter from a top 25 west coast university during the summer (July) between her junior and senior year of high school - she never even formally applied. It's not just the major public universities either. We were told by one Ivy League coach (and it's written about in the book "A is for Admissions" - I forget the author's name) that if our daughter was interested in that particular Ivy that we would be notified of acceptance or rejection WITHIN 36 HOURS of daughter's application being received at that particular Ivy. If the school really wants you, they'll get it done so don't accept anything less.</p>

<p>Sorry SB.</p>

<p>Athletes admissions is an area full of grey--and buzzing with hidden activity. It's good to rehash these stats from time to time. </p>

<p>You're right, All American athletes and Tiger Woods-types can expect the college admissions world to fete them like superstars.</p>

<p>Then again, there are stories like bubblekid's sister. She had Star potential--but not Star status. Yet, she got that offer from Georgetown. Amazing. She must be 6'-3"? :)</p>

<p>Eskimo; I am sorry you had that experience. I have a very good friend with a soccer S who had a similar experience. The whole family met the coach and believed him.
If it's any consolation, their S went to another school and he was elevated to the starting squad as a Freshman. He loves the team, loves the coach. The team went on to Div finals. My friends went mad, hopping all over the country to watch his games.</p>

<p>There is life after disappointment.</p>

<p>Read Chris Lincoln's "Playing the Game" if you really want the process explained although SBMom gave an excellent summary as she is always been prone to do. You might also refer to another thread that we were all involved in recently on the same topic. Keep in mind that this is a game that is played at a very intense level by all the coaches. Their jobs hang on the balance of their recruiting skills. A parent/prospect will have to play the game with the same intensity if one is to succeed. That is just the way it is. Leave moral issues of the college's responsibilities on the sideline. It is not a game for the feight of heart and it is filled with many ups and downs. For us, it ended very happily but trust me when I say this, I would not want to go through this mess again. At least not for another three years when my other son goes through it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
We were told by one Ivy League coach (and it's written about in the book "A is for Admissions" - I forget the author's name) that if our daughter was interested in that particular Ivy that we would be notified of acceptance or rejection WITHIN 36 HOURS of daughter's application being received at that particular Ivy.

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Hmm ... I think more information about this situation would be helpful. The IVY came up with "likely letters" because they can not provide formal admission decisions earlier to recruits than than do to regular applicants. Some colleges within an IVY University may be RD and be able to give an early acceptance but if the college in the University uses the common accept date than they can not provide a special early accept to a recruit (they use a likely letter instead). (For example, the colleges within Cornell have different adcoms and different policies and dates (at least when I applied))</p>

<p>3togo, I know somebody that was offered an acceptance at an IVY to play a sport.
She was given 24 hours to decide whether to accept.
If she didn't, they would give her spot to another athlete.</p>

<p>3togo -</p>

<p>Good catch. Although we didn't specifically talk about it with that particular coach, it probably would have been a "likely letter" rather than a formal acceptance. I think, but I'm not sure, a "rejection" would have been verbal. In our case we received what we needed - a likely letter from Brown prior to the end of the early signing period (mid-November). It's funny, though, that I still had some nervousness until our daughter actually received the acceptance letter in December. I wonder if "likely" letters have ever been followed by a "rejection" letter without some extremely serious issue occuring.</p>

<p>cheers: she was actually about 6 feet on the dot :) and outside hitter not a middle blocker.</p>

<p>SBmom's post also mirrors D's experience precisely. We went through a period of lots of recruiting calls and approaches; D wanted to go to Harvard. After she was deferred EA, Harvard's coach sent a letter stating that they were disappointed to learn of her deferral, and still intended to support her candidacy in the regular admissions round. D took the letter to school, and no one could translate exactly what the letter meant, so the college counselor on staff encouraged D to call the coach. She did so, asking "what does this mean", and the coach responded truthfully and accurately. Harvard would support her candidacy - and that's all they promised.</p>

<p>D did not get accepted to Harvard (1400 SATS, in 10% of class, 3.8 gpa - likely not strong enough academically, and not desired greatly enough by the coach), however, while waiting for April I drilled deeply into the process and found a very comprehensive article on Ivy league athletic recruiting. I wish I still had the article - I'd post it - but one of the issues that caught my attention was the practice of Ivys using the "broken leg" standard in athletic admissions - in other words, if the student breaks a leg and can no longer participate in the sport, will they still make a positive contribution to the campus, based on the non-athletic components of their application? I'm guessing this is very important for Ivys - since there is no such thing as an athletic scholarship.</p>

<p>Reading this, I told D that she should view prospective colleges through the exact same lens - if she were to get injured and be unable to participate, would she still be happy at the school? It was an important criteria for us because lots of coaches were calling, her high school had no experience with athletic recruits, and I was of course doubly lost, having never attended college at all.</p>

<p>What ended up happening is she matriculated at a D-1 school on academic scholarship where the coaches did not actually want her and discouraged her from planning to be on the team. Well - discouraged is not quite the right word - it was more like, they told her that her stats were very low for their varsity (they recruit from all over the world); and her size is not typical for the sport (too small), etc. The coaching staff communicated to her very clearly that if she did matriculate, she most likely would not be on the team, and that she should not plan on participating at her sport at this school.</p>

<p>What happened next is that she matriculated at the school because of the merit money and because they offered the majors she wants, she then lettered with the varsity and made the travel squad as a freshman, has since competed in every event and medaled in everything, and, as a junior, now receives athletic scholarship money for room, board and books - everything not covered by her academic money. </p>

<p>But it still isn't quite over - one of her coaches was dismissed last year, disappointing for us, considering the person's resume. D now has two new assistant coaches, and she doesn't like them very much. She'll almost certainly adjust (and in any case surely the experience will prepare her for life issues, such as dealing with a new supervisor at work at some point in the future), and she loves her sport too much to ever consider quitting, but it's another reason to use the "broken leg" standard - many of her peers have matriculated at top schools, and within two years are no longer active in their sports, for reasons ranging from dislike of the coach or coaching methodology, difficulty with the time commitment, or simply because they arrived on campus and wanted to participate in different things. </p>

<p>Bottom line, it makes sense to pick a school where - if the student no longer wishes to participate in the sport, or becomes unable to do so, they will still be very happy. But to the original point of the post, I think that all of the communications D had with coaches (jn all divisions and from all over the country) were very fair and honest. Any midunderstandings we had were rooted in our lack of knowledge of the process, and in the high school's inexperience with athletic recruits.</p>

<p>eskimo -- I understand your wish for discretion, but "elite east coast" leaves a lot to the imagination in terms of what the coach is capable of, especially when you don't specify the sport. For example, crew will do more for you at Harvard than at Amherst. Can you give detail, at least the division if not the sport or university?</p>