Warning to those considering CS at Wash U

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
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<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I somewhat feel as a longtime poster that I would want this information if I were a prospective CS student (specifically for those that will be freshmen for next year).</p>

<p>The CS department has been plagued for the last several years by a lack of faculty. We have lost about 25% of the CS faculty over the past decade. As a result, there are fewer and fewer class sizes, and larger and larger classes. Class sizes for introductory classes have more than doubled in the past six years.</p>

<p>There are currently 20 tenure track faculty, and about 6 lecturers.
Over the summer, 2 tenure track faculty are leaving, and over the next year another 3 faculty/lecturers are leaving as well. On the flip side, the department is currently only looking for one tenure track professor, and one lecturer.</p>

<p>Class sizes will continue to increase in the popular areas, and class offerings will continue to decrease, at least for the next four years. This affects everyone at all levels, whether BS, MS or PhD. </p>

<p>I love Wash U and have enjoyed my studies. But the number of times I've been ****ed off over the past couple years by fewer and fewer classes, and larger sizes is starting to ruin my experience. I am Wash U's biggest supporter, but I don't think if I were to be enrolling next year and was firmly set on CS I would matriculate. </p>

<p>Chances are the situation will be better in 3-4 years; it typically takes a year to hire faculty. There are still some amazing faculty that are staying. The goal is to get to 30 faculty in the next decade. But for people that will be freshmen next year, you may want to think about your options.</p>

<p>(Other engineering departments have been hiring more. It goes in phases, don't be alarmed if you're considering Electrical, Systems, Mech, BME, etc. If you're considering computer engineering, I would instantly cross off Wash U - there are about 9 total CE courses between undergrad and graduate (although the 3-5 CE faculty are all great).</p>

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<p>Yeah, I was really disappointed for my child… 300 students in a programming intro class is a bit too much, especially with the tuition we’re paying!</p>

3

<p>I don’t have much experience with the CS department, but I took CS 131 and was pretty disappointed with it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, my friend is pursuing a master’s in CS and his two favorite professors at Wash U are Cytron and Pless.</p>

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<p>131 ended up being required for a lot more departments than before. Where as it used to be pretty much just CS freshmen, there are now over 100 non freshmen registered for it. People from all schools take it for some CS experience, and it is also required for ESE majors, Math (Stat track), etc. </p>

<p>Both Cytron and Pless are excellent. But the whole experience kind of sucks when theres 60 people in a graduate level class. </p>

<p>(Not to mention 100 people in logic or algorithms for freshmen/sophomore is insane. When I took them there were 40-50 people tops.) Which is why people are hating lower level CS courses. But it doesn’t get all that much better, and will just worsen as more faculty get fed up and leave for more money. (Wash U doesn’t pay much and stiffles research by professorss by taking large cuts from any profit (where as other schools like Stanford, Carnegie Mellon take less than half what Wash U takes).</p>

<p>You can certainly still get classes with less than 10 people in; graphics classes, computer engineering classes (other than 260), all have few people.</p>

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<p>This post is really scaring me. I am an incoming freshman and I have done computer science every year of high school and really love it (I took A, AB, a web development course, and an objective-c course as well as several computer science after school classes). I was hoping to do the 5 year BSCS-MBA at WashU and minor in something like bioinformatics and maybe marketing (since the business classes don’t start until fourth year). However, I also am interested in biomedical engineering, it is just not my true passion. Is it so bad in the CS department that this would be a terrible idea and should I just do BME even though I do not want to do it nearly as much?</p>

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<p>No it’s not too bad. If anything it’s just really frustrating. (well depending if you care about class sizes). If you’re set on wash u it’s an amazing school and you won’t regret it. If you’re unsure, it’s just something to keep in mind.</p>

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<p>As interim chair of the Department of Computer Science and Engineering at Washington University, my faculty and I felt that I should step in here and correct some potentially damaging misunderstandings in the original post of this thread about our faculty size and prospects for future growth.</p>

<p>FACT: We currently have 20 tenured/tenure-track faculty and two full-time lecturers, as well as a pool of adjuncts who are hired on a semester-by-semester basis.</p>

<p>FACT: As the original poster states, we are losing two of our tenured faculty at the end of this academic year. This is a husband-and-wife pair with small kids who chose to move to an institution closer to the kids’ grandparents. As someone with similar-aged kids, I understand their move, though of course we are all sorry to see them go.</p>

<p>FACT: Contrary to the original posting, we do not anticipate any further departures by faculty or lecturers in the coming academic year, nor do we expect the size of our adjunct pool to shrink. In fact, we expect to hire an additional lecturer, for a total of three, by fall 2012.</p>

<p>FACT: Our previous department chair, Dr. Catalin Roman, departed at the end of the 2010-2011 academic year to become Dean of Engineering at the University of New Mexico. The “one faculty position” we are hiring is a national search for a new permanent department chair, which has been moving forward briskly since we started it last October. </p>

<p>The University does not typically grant interim chairs (i.e., me) authority to hire tenure-track faculty; however, we expect our new permanent chair to rapidly initiate searches for multiple such faculty.</p>

<p>FACT: the growth in our class sizes in the last few years, while real, has been due to organic growth in the number of students demanding to take our courses. We have not combined or cancelled sections of our core classes. In fact, this past semester, we added additional sections of at least one such class (CSE 332) to accommodate the load.</p>

<p>In the last academic year, we have sought and received substantial additional funding from Wash U.'s School of Engineering for additional TAs, additional lecturers and adjuncts, and to build new computing lab facilities for students (which opened right after spring break this year).</p>

<p>To conclude, we are committed to maintaining and enhancing the quality of our undergraduate program, and I expect our faculty size to grow substantially over the next few years with the advent of our new permanent chair. This is an exciting time to join the Computer Science and Engineering community at Wash U.</p>

<p>I would be happy to discuss matters offline with any concerned incoming students. Please shoot me an email or call the CSE Department office.</p>

<p>Jeremy Buhler
Interim Chair and Associate Professor
Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering
Washington University</p>

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<p>Dr. Buhler,</p>

<p>Please know that I have nothing but complete respect for you and most of the faculty. I do feel some points have been ignored in your past: namely the decrease in number of classes at the 400 and 500 level, and the increase in class size at all levels.</p>

<p>While there are 20 tenure track faculty, Dr. Brent teaches 5 people a year. Dr. Grimm taught 17 people total this year. Dr. Turner took fall off because he was sick; Dr. Ju took spring off for his family; Dr. Jain took spring off because he taught 2 classes in fall and is also taking this upcoming fall off for sabatical. Dr. Lu was absent for 1/3 of his class this semester. I get that things happen, but it’s been like this year after year. (Ken and Sally take off for a couple years before they announce their leaving, Cindy and Bill take a yearlong sabatical together, only to come back and then leave). Perhaps I’m expecting that faculty become responsible and give substantial notice so that replacements can be found. I get that things come up and don’t blame Dr. Ju, Turner, or Jain at all, but the fact is that the number of faculty actually teaching in a given semester is more around 15 than 20. </p>

<p>There were 2 sections of 332 because Dr. Gill taught 53x last fall instead, and there were 80+ people enrolled in 332. You guys did make the correct decision to split it into two sections and for that I commend you, but it seems unfair to Dr. Gill. Furthermore many of his other classes haven’t been taught in 4+ years (ie 432(3?) despite his desire to). </p>

<p>My intention is not to turn away any potential students. I have been helping people on this forum for over four years, and have praised the department numerous times (this is my first “complaint” on this forum). I still feel it is my duty on a webforum such as this to give what I view as important information people should consider. People should investigate this is or ignore it as they seem fit, and I am gracious that you mentioned for prospective students to contact you. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, I see nothing but potential repurcussions coming my way so I’m going to leave it at that. Anyone can PM me if they have questions.</p>

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<p>And of course David Zar left two days before the start of the semester. </p>

<p>Done for real this time!</p>

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<p>Concluding Thoughts:</p>

<p>So, it seems as though every faculty member of the CSE department has read my post. I would like to mention that I have nothing but respect for all of you (and my mention of two professors great professors in particular was an agreement with the post above me). Most of the department is excellent, if not beyond excellenet. If the one thing the department is not lacking it’s that the faculty they have are some of the best.</p>

<p>I also think it’s kind of sad that it takes a post like this to get attention of the department and dean and open an honest line of communication. I have met with Dr. Buhler and will be meeting with engineering dean, Dean Quatrano, next week. Dr. Buhler expressed his view, which I can’t fault in any way. As interim department head, he is in the position of being responsible for the department without all of the abilities to affect change. I think under those circumstances, he has done a great job. He truely cares about the department.</p>

<p>My goal of this post was twofold: to give information that I felt (and still do feel) potential freshmen deserve. Whether this advice is taken or not, I still feel it is a responsibility to share my opinions - on this, a forum for people to express their <em>opinions</em>. My second reason is to try and affect change, or at least an honest and open dialogue and that is something I believe I have accomplished. I would love to see the department improve over the next decade.</p>

<p>As you can see on the right, I have over 900 posts on College Confidential over the past several years. I have offered advice to hundreds (if not thousands) of people…as have the other Wash U regulars on this forum. I don’t do it because I dislike the school; I do it because I care about the school.</p>

<p>My goals of this post <em>WERE NOT</em> to alienate anyone; whether they be prospective students, current students, or faculty members. </p>

<p>I hope that faculty members that read this and know who I am (as it seems most do) know that I respect them immensely. I am thankful that they choose to share their knowledge. I have had nothing but a fantastic time at Wash U, and look forward to future classes. </p>

<p>I would like to thank the faculty that have given me advice since I first started this post. </p>

<p>Regards.
Marc</p>

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<p>Marc,</p>

<p>Thanks for your last response and for coming to talk to me in person today. </p>

<p>We’ll have to agree to disagree about the right way to voice your concerns, but we obviously share the goal of a strong CSE Department that serves its undergrad population well. I am confident that our agenda for faculty growth, as well as some of the recent initiatives we discussed in person, will allow us to continue to offer a full, diverse, and intellectually challenging curriculum to our students in years to come.</p>

<p>Jeremy</p>

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<p>I’m interested in finding out what has happened with regard to the CS department at Wash U. Has the number of faculty increased? What is the student/faculty ratio? What is the average class size for all classes?</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>I would like to know too. I was about to post a thread in regards to transfer admissions for CS, but after reading this I want to know if anything has improved. I don’t think I would do well in huge classes…</p>

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<p>It’s getting better, with three hires this year. There will be additional hires next year.</p>

<p>If you are applying for next year, I wouldn’t worry about what I originally posted. By the time you get to take electives, the department size will have increased by at least 1/3.</p>

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<p>Are these tenure-track hires or just lecturer/adjunct hires? Are these hires just replacing the numbers they have lost (I count 4 that were mentioned), or is there a plan to expand the department to keep up with increasing student demand? Is CE still so small? How large is the “adjunct pool” and what kind of experience and background do these people have?</p>

<p>It’s difficult enough for tenured faculty members to convince a dean to fund another position. I’m puzzled as to why the faculty who posted here thought you as a student would somehow have been able to do this if you had voiced your concerns differently. Moreover, I’m a little concerned seeing the OP chastised simply for airing his personal concerns and opinion. These were valid concerns that were expressed in a respectful manner with all the factual information given, not an unfounded rant. My daughter has already applied as a CS major with interest in CE, and I’d like to thank the OP for bringing this to our attention. </p>

<p>I’d love to hear what the “agenda for faculty growth” mentioned by Prof. Buhler actually is. How many new tenure slots are there, as opposed to simply replacing the faculty who have left? If I understand correctly, the department is still 1-2 smaller than it was a few years ago. What areas are the recent hires in, and has it been decided what areas the additional hires will be in? Thanks.</p>

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<p>marc…I am glad you posted. I get the feeling that the department would not have tried to fix things unless you took it public.</p>

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<p>^ I’m not so sure that’s true. The CSE dept has been planning on ramping up hiring for years now (it’s not just their decision; the engineering school as a whole had to ok it).
It was mentioned every year at the annual Dean’s Forum & several other meetings.</p>

<p>It just sucks for those caught in the middle years.</p>

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<p>It is always hard to know how much forums like these help spur decisions on, maybe especially those that were already planned but bogged down. One thing Deans and higher administration hate is feeling like some area of their school is being bad-mouthed or otherwise getting negative PR. Sometimes it also can illuminate just how much pent-up demand there is, although in WUSTL’s case this was apparently already clear.</p>

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<p>Would be nice if a representative from the department would post an answer to the questions about plans for new hires. Are they expanding the department to accommodate student interest? They are hiring a new tenured professor to replace the tenured chair who departed, but what about the other two tenured faculty? Are they being replaced by the single lecturer? Has the new chair been hired yet? How many tenure track positions will the new chair be able to create? More than have been lost in the past 2 years? Or is the department moving to teaching a lot of classes with adjuncts and lecturers, since the professor mentioned hiring several more. For the tuition being charged, I’d expect instruction by tenured or tenure-track faculty.</p>

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<p>I’d also really like to know a full update on how the CS department is doing…i was accepted ED for class of 2018 as a CS major and am pretty concerned about this post</p>