<p>Anyone considering attending the University of Arizona for the BFA Theatre Program, which includes BFA Musical Theatre Program, please be aware of what happened yesterday, May 5, 2006. Seventeen (17) students ( 10 freshman and 7 sophomores) were cut from the program on May 5 basically leaving these students stranded for another year before they can audition for entry into another program. These students were not given any warnings and were unable to make plans for the following school year. Had only one or two been cut, one would believe the students were not BFA material, but given the large number cut (who did make it into the program initially through audition), one would question the program’s integrity and mission.</p>
<p>as a STUDENTS in the BFA acting program at the university of arizona who was not cut on his ascencion into junior year standing i would like to say on behalf of everyone at the unviersity of arizona that those who were cut from primarily the freshman class were some of the most pompous, laziest, disrespectful students i have met in an educational theatre setting - and frankly they just werent very good</p>
<p>secondly, my class during my sophmore year large - 23 students</p>
<p>it needed to be cut to down so people had more time to work </p>
<p>three of my very good friends were cut from my class and this is very unfortunate but we were all told before coming here that classes are COMPETITIVE and there will be CUTS MADE</p>
<p>i never felt exempt from this rule and im not sure why one of the 17 who got cut did either</p>
<p>we have a saying among actors at the UofA - "the proof is in the puddin" - if you're considering this school - come see a show!! after all thats the only way to see exactly what goes on here</p>
<p>Unfortunately, your post speaks for itself.</p>
<p>I second what chrism said....it does speak for itself.</p>
<p>On the main forum, I just bumped the Cut policies page - I didn't go back and re-read, just remembered that it existed. Holly06, I can't imagine the devastation this has caused you! </p>
<p>RADDUDE - I don't know anything about UA's program, so cannot speak directly to it, but I would think that 17 is a huge # to cut from a program at once. There are different philosophies about cut programs, and the school certainly has the right to have a cut policy and administer it as they see fit.</p>
<p>As a parent and an educator, the problems I would see with Holly06's take of the situation: 1) The timing. If the staff knew students needed to be cut (ESPECIALLY sophs!), didn't they know that before May? The timing almost seems to be purposeful, to prevent them from pursuing other options.
2)Were there any other steps of notification prior to the final cut letter, telling the students what problems they needed to address? A probationary period?</p>
<p>RAD - you say the students were just not very good, and that the # admitted was too big to give everyone ample time to work. Those would raise big red flags with me.... that makes it sound like U of A is using cuts to correct poor decisions they made in the admittance process, both in the number and talent of admitted students. I would consider those the very worst of reasons to have a cut program.</p>
<p>And, while I thinking seeing a show at a college can be an immeasurable tool in evaluating programs, I think it is very shortsighted to say that is the only way to judge a program. Schools can put on remarkable shows, and yet not be providing the day-to-day training that is very important. </p>
<p>RAD - the one piece of good news I can see in your response, is that U of A is very upfront about their cut policy to prospective students. Some schools are not, and I think that is downright cruel.</p>
<p>"RAD - the one piece of good news I can see in your response, is that U of A is very upfront about their cut policy to prospective students. Some schools are not, and I think that is downright cruel."</p>
<p>I don't think there is any "good news" in RAD's response, just as I don't think U of A is completely clear and upfront. And what is cruel is what RAD said. Like the other posters said, the post speaks for itself.</p>
<p>RAD also neglected to mentions that just as they cut people who "aren't very good," they also retain (just as many) people who...aren't...very...good. There doesn't seem to be much logic in their decisions as to who and who not to cut, when you look at the actual talent pool. When 7 of us were cut from my sophomore class, there wasn't a single lazy or disrespectful person among us. 5 girls and 2 boys, and no one had a clue they were going to be cut.</p>
<p>Interesting side note: the 5 girls who were cut that year (me included) were the only 5 girls to play Sonya from "Uncle Vanya" in Chekhov class. Coincidence? Also, they told every one of us Sonyas that we were cut because of our acting skills. Even then, I felt as though we were being cut for taking on a challenging role.</p>
<p>One professor told me in my why-I-was-cut-conference with the faculty that I didn't capture Sonya's "ugliness." He said that to all the other girls who were cut too. There was absolutely no room for my interpretation of Sonya as a girl who decides not to wear her insecurities out on her sleeve, but rather tries to keep them hidden behind a veil of good cheer and optimism. Nope, Sonya was supposed to be a drudge. (The Chekhov showcase was a big part of our audition into the junior class.)</p>
<p>What is going on at that school?</p>
<p>As someone who is graduating this semseter with a Musical Theatre BFA(and using raddude's name), U of A is very upfront about cutting issues. Though the program is not perfect, cutting has always been an obvious possiblity and everyone is made blatantly aware of it. Anyone who says differently is ignorant of everything the teachers tell us. In a lot of the cut students, there was a lack of passion. If you can't hack it at the U of A, you shouldn't let it limit your passion, but rather drive you harder. However, cuts can be a reality check. I've never seen someone who was cut who wasn't better off for it.</p>
<p>I take offense to the statement about not being able to "hack it" at the U of A. I was more than able to "hack it," and the two excellent recommendations I received from two of the best professors in that program prove it. If everything they said in their recommendations is true (and why would they lie for my sake?) then there is no way I was cut because of either a lack of passion OR talent.</p>
<p>I appreciate your desire to defend your program, but don't try to discredit those of us who were cut without good reason.</p>
<p>On one point, however, I agree. It was better for me to get cut, because now I have the opportunity to attend a school that appreciates me.</p>
<p>Samia, Boston Conservatory c/o 2009.</p>
<p>Forgive my my ignorance, but do all schools who have a cut system not let students who they are deciding to cut know about it until this late in the game? It seems to me completely bizarre that students would be told in May -- when it's far too late for them to audition for other programs -- that they won't be attending that particular college next year. Perhaps this is how they all do it. I don't know. But if it is, well, that seems extreme to me. Clearly, there will always be students in programs who don't do the work or who the teachers decide simply can't cut it, even if they try. But cutting people in May just seems extreme to me. I know theater and MT are harsh worlds: judgment of who has "it" and who doesn't can vary wildly from one director/teacher to another, etc. But college is not the real world; it's a learning environment. It seems to me that any student who is doing the work and trying and attending class (and who made it into the school) ought to be allowed to develop over four years to the best of his or her potential, and then let the market decide if that person has what it takes. In any case, it would be useful if someone from U of A came on this board to clear up the questions surrounding so many students being cut. It looks bad from several vantage points: either they made bad decisions in auditions/admissions or a very questionable decision to have to cut so many kids.</p>
<p>"It seems to me that any student who is doing the work and trying and attending class (and who made it into the school) ought to be allowed to develop over four years to the best of his or her potential, and then let the market decide if that person has what it takes."</p>
<p>NotMamaRose,
It might seem to an outsider that that is the way it OUGHT to work in college - but Dr John wrote eloguently about the reasons why it doesn't work that way in arts performance programs in a post which I think is on the main MT FAQ site under "cuts". I didn't understand it either until he explained how it works, and why. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll go hunting.</p>
<p>Chrism, no need to hunt, here is the link to the "Cut Policy" that Doctorjohn wrote in such wonderful detail. It is on Shauna's website she created moons ago.</p>
<p>5pants</p>
<p>Thanks, y'all, I have, indeed, read doctorjohn's post about juries and yes, it makes sense. I am somewhat familiar with the notion of juries in a high school setting, as they have them at my D's arts high school. I do get that programs in drama or musical theater or other arts areas need to have some way to ascertain whether students are measuring up and, indeed, progressing, as they move through a program. Juries do that, and also give the faculty a regularly-scheduled time to weed out/cull people who may be talented, but may also lack commitment, passion, etc. (By this, I am alluding to kids who don't come to class, rehearsal, etc. etc. In other words, who obviously display lack of commitment.)
Even so, doesn't it seem extraordinary to anyone else that a program cut 17 students? Again, perhaps this is not unusual, and my ignorance is once again showing. (I confess openly to not knowing much, if anything, about these college programs. That's why I came to this list: to learn.) But it seems to me that cutting 17 kids from a program means that something went wrong somewhere: either in the admissions process or elsewhere. Of course, once again, let me point out that we really don't have a complete set of info here on which to base our discussion. It would be great if someone from U of A (administration or faculty) could come on list to comment, so things could be clearer. In any case, I do feel for any U of A student who was working hard and doing his or her best, only to find himself or herself out of a school. I think we can agree that not a one of us would want that to happen to her child.</p>
<p>I am a professor of Acting and Musical Theatre at the University of Arizona.
I am sorry for any pain any students have after the advancement list is made. This can be a terrible heart break.</p>
<p>I would like to give you some facts on our policy in advancing from the freshman to sophomore year and the sophomore to junior year.</p>
<p>We admit around 6 freshman women and 6 freshman men into the BFA Musical Theatre program and 4 freshman women and 6 freshman men into the BFA acting program each year.</p>
<p>These students know before they audition that our professional training program requires an advancement audition at the end of the freshman year and at the end of the sophomore year. </p>
<p>At the end of the freshman year any student who has taken Acting One and Acting Two at our school or any other school may audition for a place in the sophomore BFA class. We have BA students and transfer students auditioning for the sophomore class along with the freshman BFA students.</p>
<p>The same curriculum is taught in all sections of Acting one and Acting two therefore, all students have the same technique. The freshman BFA students have had performance opportunities in our freshman MT company and the acting majors have opportunities in our freshman acting company.</p>
<p>This year we had 20 BFA freshman audition, 17 BA students audition and 10 transfer students audition for the sophomore class. We want to keep the number in the sophomore class between 18 and 20. Last year's sophomore class was an exception because we had two students return to school from a leave of absence so our sophomore class was 23 in the spring semester only. Usually someone decides to leave the program for various reasons during the year and so we usually have 18 to 19 in the sophomore class.</p>
<p>We had 47 students auditioning for 20 places in the sophomore class.
We tell the students in the fall semester that they should all register for their classes as if they are not going to be advanced. They have time to decide on another major and get the classes they need for the next fall. If they are advanced it is easy to adjust their schedules back to the BFA programs. So the students do have at least 6 months notice that they might not be advanced. They have time to apply and audition at other schools and talk to other departments at the university. We have many transfer students audition in the February auditions. They know that they will not be told if they are accepted until after our freshman have auditioned in May.</p>
<p>Some freshman students come to the University of Arizona and are BA theatre majors their first ear. These students take all the same courses as the BFA students except they are not in the same acting class as the BFA students. There are many BA freshman who have done theatre all through high school and are well prepared to compete with the BFA students. </p>
<p>THis year we took 4 transfer students and 5 BA students into the sophomore class and the other 11 students were from the BFA freshman class. We did not advance 10 students from the freshman class. The competition is very high and we have to choose the students we feel will benefit most from our program. There are many schools that have this policy. We make these decisions after many hours of discussion. The students are judged on their progress, trainability, and talent. </p>
<p>As far as the sophomore class this year. 23 was too many and we learned that we can not give enough individual attention with that many students in the class. So we wanted to only advance 18 students from the sophomore to the junior class. One sophomore student did not audition because she was transferring back to her home state. We hold the auditions and look at the students record over the past two years in the classroom and in their performances. Some students do not meet the requirements to advance because they have not maintained a B average in their major or they did not fulfill the academic requirements to be advanced. This was the case with several students this year.</p>
<p>The junior year is when we begin the classical work in Shakespeare, Moliere and Restoration styles. Sophomores must have demonstated certain requirements with the growth of their voice and a keen understanding of the acting technique. We teach a classical program the last two years and some students are more suited for modern theatre. You need to do both at the University of Arizona. </p>
<p>I know teachers at most schools dread not advancing a student. As actors we know rejection is part of a life long struggle in theatre. But we tell the students that just because our faculty feels that this is not the right school for them now does not mean they won't be an actor or a singer or in the theatre. No one can stop someone's dream. You might have to find another path, but don't stop the journey. </p>
<p>I hope this explains our policy and if you have any questions please contact me.</p>
<p>Marsha Bagwell</p>
<p>I don't know how many people know this so I thought I would share it.</p>
<p>The CBS Early Morning Show is having a segment called "My Broadway Debut".</p>
<p>They selected five universities with musical theatre programs and will bring a man and a women from each school to New York to perform on the show and then the public will call in and vote similiar to "American Idol" .</p>
<p>Bernard Telsey Casting went to each school and selected the two students from an audition and interview process. The students go to New York at the end of the month and perform and the winner gets to have a walk on part in DIRTY ROTTEN SCOUNDRELS on Broadway.</p>
<p>The casting director selected a song for each student to perforem from the current shows running on Broadway now.</p>
<p>The five schools are:</p>
<p>Northwestern
Michigan
Wagner
Florida State
University of Arizona</p>
<p>Ms. Bagwell, thanks for taking the time to come on this board and explain to us the university's vantage point in this matter. I have one question, and it is this: you said something about students knowing at least six months in advance that they may not move on to the next year. Do you mean that in a general sense, as in "students who come to U of Arizona know that they have to pass muster at the end of every year to continue on to the next," or did you mean that students whose places were in jeopardy (in other words, those whose professors had decided that, for one reason or another, they were not achieving at the expected level) were taken aside and told that they were on a sort of probation?
In any case, this anecdote serves to remind students considering BFA programs (and their parents) that universities with cut systems do, indeed, act on those policies. People get cut. Those who are not willing to risk it perhaps should enroll at schools that don't have such a system in place.
Of course, that doesn't mitigate the heartbreak involved. So sad for all. :( I can't imagine how I would feel if this were me, or my child. (I think that the professors and administrators involved also felt awful.)</p>
<p>Ms. Bagwell,</p>
<p>I would like to add my thanks to NMR's. It was gracious of you to explain your policies in such detail.</p>
<p>Having said that, I must tell you that I think it's completely wrong of UofA to hold auditions for admission freshman year. Your program sounds much more similar to those that admit students to the BFA program at the end of sophomore year.</p>
<p>Unless a student is cutting classes, not participating, etc., I believe the university has an obligation to provide training to those they accepted by audition. That's just my opinion ... others may disagree. But, I would never permit (i.e. finance) my student to attend the program described above, sorry.</p>
<p>-Jersey44</p>
<p>I completely agree with Jersey44. Aside from the tension and stress, the lack of a safe environment in which to take risks, the obvious toxic element in such a program is the reality that one is playing musical chairs and for the sake of one's own interests must view others in one's class as competitors and not colleagues. This is the way of the world, but not the way of a healthy educational setting. Yuck. Samia, you are in a much better place!!!! If Uof Arizona continues to find that the BA students are as strong as the BFA ones who were admitted as freshmen, then either their audition process for freshmen is lacking or their freshman program is not advancing the students well...why split them and then reconfigure so dramatically? Why would anyone choose this?</p>
<p>I am grateful that you understood my intention to try and clear up any misunderstanding and to empathize with any parent saddened by this experience. </p>
<p>I believe the answer to your question about the 6 months notice is two fold. All students are required to read and sign on the application and audition forms for the School of Theatre Arts that they do understand our policy for entrance to the sophomore and junior levels for the BFA program. It is also listed on our web site.</p>
<p>The students are aware of this policy: before they audition, when they audition and throughout the year by their professors. They are also told at the meeting they have with their advisor in November and February or March that they should all sign up for classes for the fall semester as if they will not be advanced. </p>
<p>At the auditions at the end of the year, all students are equally reviewed so that all auditioning (BFA, BA and transfers students) are given the same opportunity. The BFA students do not automatically have an edge over the BA students or the transfer students. The BFA sophomores auditioning for the junior year are the only ones eligible to audition. </p>
<p>Many schools (NYU and Syracuse for example) take in twice as many students as we do and some schools do not let freshmen or sophomores enter into the BFA degree until their junior year. </p>
<p>There are schools who have MFA students who do not let undergraduate BFA students perform in main stage productions. Students from several BFA programs are only directed by other students. This is not the policy at Arizona. Each BFA student has a main stage performance opportunity each semester. </p>
<p>Each school has found the best way to work within their program. I agree that parents and students should investigate each school's advancement policy and see which program fits with the expectations of your child's education.</p>
<p>Again, I want to say that I know the heartbreak this type of rejection causes the families. But, it is only a turn in the road and the goals of the students and parents can still be the same.</p>
<p>All freshman and sophomores are on probation. Students are not confirmed BFA students, within the School of Theatre Arts, until their junior year. They will automatically be advanced through the degree from then on if they meet the academic and university requirements.</p>
<p>I can only speak for myself on advising, but I meet with my first semester freshman students during mid-terms and review their progress. I continually do the same throughout the spring semester.</p>
<p>If your child was told they were doing a good job then I am sure that these statements were true. However, when other students auditioned in May all students are equal and the competition for the sophomore year is very high.</p>
<p>It is extremely difficult to disappoint students who have done well, but that is the result of all auditions for competitive degrees. There is a limit to the number of students we can take.</p>
<p>Please feel free to contact me if I can help you or your child.</p>