Warning U of A

<p>I was going to leave this alone after my last post, but I feel like there's still a square inch of this dead horse that needs a beating. ;) Assuming that by “talent” you mean developed talent, I seriously doubt you’ll find any students from the non-cutting "top dawg" BFA programs that emerge with “18 year old talent” after four years.” Lack of growth is something that will most certainly get you cut or flunked from any BFA worth its salt. You can, however, rest assured you’ll be warned and/or put on formal probation first and it won’t be to conform to some predetermined number. You should also understand that some of the top BFAs have a good number of 18 year olds with 20 year old (or more) talent – some with fairly extensive professional resumes – in the first year class and a big part of the quality of their graduates comes as much from those students’ skills and work habits rubbing off on one another as the teaching itself. Then again, like I implied in post 94, some schools might not have this luxury and could have reason to try to engineer it through cuts or whatever because of who they’re able to attract in the first place.</p>

<p>I suppose picking a school with a cut system could be a legitimate choice as long as you truly understand why it is there though I’d never personally recommend it and don’t buy its “real world” benefits in the slightest. It just means the slackers and some other talented kids who were admitted that weren't quite right for the program in the first place have been eliminated. Then again, I also think it’s somewhat ludicrous to choose a BFA that doesn't have a showcase and recommends grad school to complete your training if you have a choice. Why not just get a BA and follow it up with an MFA? (scratching head) Bleh … That’s a whole ‘nother tangent that has nothing to do with UA so I’ll stop. LOL</p>

<p>fishbowl,</p>

<p>I hope you come back in another year and share your perspective then. It will be interesting to see if your point of view changes at all with time and experience under your belt. Your research is stellar I will admit, but sometimes it's not all cut and dry as you preceive. I write this all with good intentions...I do so admire your wit!! IMHO, you can research and research but nothing better is than a firsthand experience.</p>

<p>Warmly,</p>

<p>SUE aka 5pants</p>

<p>
[quote]
IMHO, you can research and research but nothing better is than a firsthand experience.

[/quote]
True dat. Black and white are just extremes. As for experience, I've got a little. :)</p>

<p>Since my editing time has expired, let me correct my typos:<br>
IMHO, you can research and research but nothing is better than first-hand experience. There that makes sense. :)</p>

<p>I can tell you, we have learned much over the last few years and that old saying "hindsight is 20-20" is oh so true!!</p>

<p>I'm just curious - that's my nature...</p>

<p>Does anyone have an idea of the "top" schools who no longer employ a cut system via juries?</p>

<p>My first impulse was to ask if being accepted to these schools isn't a "cut" in and of itself; but then I realized that once a student is accepted, they have a fairly good chance of completing school at that very institution...so never mind.</p>

<p>On the 80 student classes, how the heck do they ever get "substantial roles" with that many students? Are these schools producing a season of eight musicals? That seems to me to be the minimum number needed to ensure at least a "featured" or "supporting" role for each in the class (even if it has whittled down, by attrition, to 60). Help the old lady out, here?</p>

<p>eve</p>

<p>I'll speak to what I know personally: both CMU and UMich have jury-type formal evaluations, but neither school cuts.</p>

<p>(Note: I say “jury-type” evals b/c I’m not sure what they are called at CMU – although I do know their general process, as I will describe in a sec – and b/c at UM, they are called Sophomore Evals.)</p>

<p>CMU: At the end of each semester, students have conferences with each of their faculty people in which their work is analyzed and recommendations made. If a student has been doing very poorly in classwork, he or she may be asked to leave (freshmen) or to take a semester off (upperclassmen). I don’t know what the returning process is for those who are asked to take a semester off, but I do know that students can refuse to leave as long as they aren’t failing any requirements and that this must be, and has been, honored in the very recent past. (In other words, a student refused to leave and stayed, got cast, graduated…) In addition, I hear a great deal about this process from my former students who are at CMU, and the students who are “on the bubble” are almost always bringing it upon themselves through dumb lifestyle choices like too much partying and then skipping a lot of class. Believe me, the CMU faculty acts as compassionate educators to try to ease especially the younger students through such “normal” college transitions, giving them chances to redeem themselves and bring their work up to speed. (I have at least one current example in mind.) This situation is VERY different from the old, infamous cut system employed by CMU up until about the early 90’s (maybe mid-90’s?), when they admitted a freshmen class intending to cut half of them at the end of sophomore year.</p>

<p>UMich: I refrained from posting yesterday in response to goldfiftyone’s implication that UMich employs a kind of "secret" cut policy – but I did verify what I thought to be true: in the last 7 years at least (this is as far back as I could verify for certain), no student has left UMich because he or she was asked to do so. (A few have left to work or b/c of personal circumstances and decisions.) UMich has a very rigorous evaluation process at the end of sophomore year which culminates in conferences in which each student is told his strengths and weaknesses. Faculty may recommend that a student pursue another field, but they do not ask people to leave the program, and the choice of how to proceed is the student's choice alone.<br>
One reason I am such a staunch supporter of the UMich program is because I have watched closely what fantastic and holistic EDUCATORS make up that program. They instill the highest degree of professional behavior and certainly artistic skill, but they also hold strongly to the idea that the environment be a nurturing place for true personal and professional GROWTH. This is the very first thing students hear Brent Wagner, the head of the program, say on the day of their audition, and I have watched it be totally true with my students who are going through and have gone through that program. I will never forget the very first time I saw this nurturing philosophy in action, up-close-and-personal: I was attending a production at the end of a year and saw a young woman crying and being hugged by students. Turns out she was a freshman who had been accepted as an MT but also had other academic interests, and at the end of 1st semester, she dropped out of the MT program to pursue these (still at UM). I saw her at the end of that semester away from MT, and she was heartbroken b/c she realized how much she missed it. (I got all of the details of this story later). She later formally approached Brent Wagner for reentry into the program, and after much rigorous talking with her, he recognized her passion and in essence told her, “That kind of exploration is what college is for.” She returned to the program, graduated, and landed a HUGE professional gig immediately!!! </p>

<p>As goldfiftyone has stated, some people prefer a more “rigorous” environment – but UM and CMU are both environments where personal “rigor” and professional/artistic rigor are clearly separated, and as a longtime educator, I find that model absolutely as valid as any other.</p>

<p>CoachC,</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing what you know. Your post was most enlightening.</p>

<p>SUE</p>

<p>Coach:</p>

<p>Your reply was extremely helpful, as always.</p>

<p>Thank you, times two!</p>

<p>eve</p>

<p>"On the 80 student classes, how the heck do they ever get "substantial roles" with that many students? Are these schools producing a season of eight musicals? That seems to me to be the minimum number needed to ensure at least a "featured" or "supporting" role for each in the class (even if it has whittled down, by attrition, to 60). Help the old lady out, here?"</p>

<p>I thought I'd address this question. My daughter finished her freshman year at NYU; there are 80 in musical theater IN HER CLASS ALONE!! Holy #$%%!! However, a couple have left for various reasons (one freshman in her class is in Spring Awakening on Off-Broadway; a couple others in other grades got cast in national tours). I'd guess about 75 freshmen, (an unusually high number; I guess hardly anyone turned down their acceptance) and probably 50-60 each of sophs/jrs/srs. So there are around 225 in musical theater (ONLY A GUESS!) NOT INCLUDING THE OTHER STUDIOS (Meisner, Playwrights, etc.) DOUBLE HOLY #$%%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SO I hear ya about not getting substantial roles! As I've whined about on a different thread, my daughter didn't even get to AUDITION for the mainstage musical, "Hair" (albeit bald and nude requirements....long story....) because there were no slots available. Paying 50 grand a year for musical theater and your kid didn't even get to AUDITION?? I was miffed, to say the least. BUT, as you say, they DO offer more than one musical (not sure how many; probably around 6-8 per year; some student-directed). She DID get to audition for a student-run musical, and I think there are going to be more offered when she returns in the fall. There are lots of straight plays, too, although my daughter probably wouldn't consider those as she loves to sing.
Personally, while I know SHE wants to perform while at school, I'm more concerned with her getting excellent training, which I feel she is. Her private voice teacher is incredible, as was her vocal tech teacher, dance instructors, and acting coach. She will remain with the same private voice teacher throughout her 4 years (she was one of the finalists for Victoria Clark's role in the Nat'l tour of Light in the Piazza; lucky for my daughter, she didn't get it, although for her voice teacher's sake, I hoped she had!) While I'd be thrilled to see my daughter perform at NYU, I'm even more thrilled that she loves it there and is getting top-notch training.</p>

<p>another thought:</p>

<p>if a college is looking to offer a program more similar to real life, (by cutting students), then why is it wrong for a college to have more kids than they can cast in a mainstage show? Isn't this also the way the real word works?</p>

<p>if this is true then shouldn't there be MORE kids in a program to create competition?</p>

<p>i don't really know, just a thought...</p>

<p>Yes, the competition keeps the schools strong in talent, and more reflective of the real world. </p>

<p>But I have heard posters bemoan cuts because of the "educational" environment...they feel that schools shouldn't cut once a student has been admitted (said cut effectively adding at least one year onto their degree, if they need/choose to transfer to another school).</p>

<p>eve</p>

<p>Forgive me for chiming in here, but I want to respond to something that Prof. Himmelheber said. She stated: <<educational" environment...they="" feel="" that="" schools="" shouldn't="" cut="" once="" a="" student="" has="" been="" admitted.="">></educational"></p>

<p>I do think that it depends on what we mean by "cuts." If we are talking about schools telling students who skip classes regularly, don't do the work, are disrespectful or overly challening and/or are clearly not up to at least a minimum standard, then I think most of us here would support that kind of cut. That would be commensurate to failing a student in the history or English (or any other) department who did not perform at the college's minimum standard. In other words, we are talking here about a student who is basically failing.</p>

<p>But if we are talking about students who are earning B's and even A's in their classes and yet are not asked to return to the program because someone with what the college perceives as even more potential has applied to transfer in, well, then that's a whole different ball o' wax, as my grandma liked to say! :) And according to what some have posted here, <em>that</em> is what happened at U of Arizona. </p>

<p>There <em>is</em> a difference between a college setting and the real world. College is prep for the real world, and the way some of us see it, once a college admits a student (presuming that student works hard), it is the college's responsibility to help the student reach the very upper limits of his own potential, and then let the market decide if that person can make it. At least, that's how some of us see it.</p>

<p>Of course, every college or university has the right to conduct its program the way it sees fit, as long as that policy is clear when people apply. It seems clear to me that Arizona is, well, clear about its policy upfront. That's all anyone can ask, I think.</p>

<p>L</p>

<p>Yes, exactly my point.</p>

<p>There is a fine line, and as long as schools are up-front about policies, then "buyer beware," as my grandmother used to say.</p>

<p>:)</p>

<p>Different schools, different policies, different "fits" for various students. Know what you are getting into, and there should be no problems down the line.</p>

<p>eve</p>

<p>It's good to have this thread out in the open. It sounds to me like UA is very confused with it's loyalties to the students. Do the research while choosing your schools. Many fine programs maintain the highest quality while keeping most positive in all respects to their students and to themselves.</p>

<p>I wish I had learned about this website earlier! Maybe my post is a little too late but as a student who was cut last year, I feel moved to comment.</p>

<p>Most of what the instructor from the University of Arizona said was correct. We were all extremely aware of how cuts work, and how they are a possibility to everyone. I can honestly say that I was treated with respect from every one of the faculty members, but knowing what I know now about the program, I most likely would not have come. </p>

<p>I can't speak for every student in my class who was cut, but I can honestly say that I was never told to register for other classes in case of a cut. I even recall asking a teacher about headshots and told not to worry about that until I take a certain class senior year, which suggested to me that I had nothing to worry about. </p>

<p>The freshman acting class had two showcases at the end of each semester, and an audition to re-enter. These two showcases were no longer than half an hour each, and our audition two minutes max. For the two teachers who worked with us through the semester, I feel that they were capable of judging out talent, work ethic, and passion. But for the four remaining members of the faculty who had a say-so in our being cut, I don't feel that it was fair. I was never late to a class, always had my assignments in on time, never missed a class, and I know in my heart that my passion is now greater than ever, but those four faculty members had no way of seeing that for themselves. </p>

<p>What hurt me the most was not the rejection, but the lack of warning. The day before my audition, I approached my teacher (who I still think fondly of because of his respect for me) and asked him for help with my auditioning piece. He looked at me and said, "You don't need help. You're golden." And unfortunately I believed him. When I later asked why I was cut, I was told it was because of diction. I accepted that. I was told that I wasn't listening in my scene to my partner in the showcase, when only a couple weeks prior in rehearsal that my listening was "flawless." My teacher said to me, "Remember that one rehearsal about a month ago where you were just coming out with some great stuff?" "Yes," I said. And he told me that it came too late. Which now doesn't make sense, seeing as how they told other students that they didn't improve at all. So it seems that some students were cut for not improving and I was cut for improving too late... that I don't understand. I can't feel responsible for my own ability to improve, which is obviously there, but I can't expect to improve at the same rate of evey one else, and I don't think teachers should expect that either. Not only did I have no warning, but besides the diction comment, I didn't know what criticism to take to heart because it's contradictory nature. </p>

<p>I remember going to a show with my father at the end of the semester. We sat and looked at the program which had the shows for the following year. He whispered to me, "You're not going to be in any of these shows." "I know," I realized. More than anything, U of A helped me to pay attention to my type. As a minority student, my options were limited at a school like U of A. Not only are there not many parts for women in the shows, but many require people to look like they belong to the same family. I remember leaving "Side Show" which was fantastic, and crying that night, realizing that I would never be one of the sisters, or even be considered. I would never be in the Brighton Beach or Philadelphia story family. I would never be Juliet or her mother. I would never be the sweetheart in Biloxi Blues because race was an issue in the time period. And I don't sing so that knocked out the musicals fast. Now, I'm not saying that U of A should put on A Raisin in the Sun or Hairspray because of the 2 or 3 black students that they have. The U of A puts on very classical pieces and does a great job, but most of their shows have very set types for their characters, and not many of them African American. For me personally, I felt limited, and I questioned why I was selected at all when there would be half as many options for me as the other students. </p>

<p>Whoever posted something like, "I don't know an actor who was cut and wasn't better for it" was absolutely right. I am certain that this isn't the last time I will be rejected as an actor, but my passion is still strong. I am applying to five schools this year with a knowledge of what I am looking for that I didn't have a year ago. I will not look back at the U of A in vain, but just as a step and struggle I had to endure through my journey. I am now acting more in my community than I did when in the program, and more than some students from my class who advanced. I am sure that the U of A is a perfect place for many students, but I am anxious to be in a school where I have more options, more of a warning of the fore coming, and more of a comfort that my place is valued in a program. It's hard because for some of the students who were cut, I can see why. And it was difficult to see students who never turned in work, showed up late and/or inebriated, lied to teachers, or were just disrespectful, admitted back in. But I can only look at my work through the year which was honest and evidently trainable. </p>

<p>Do I feel cheated for the amount of work that I put in? Yes. Do I hold that against the U of A? No. I knew exactly what I was getting into, when cuts would be made, and that it would possibly be me. Does it hurt when my old professors don't even look me in the eye when I pass them in the halls? Absolutely. I hold nothing against them for where I am in my life, because obviously this is where God wants me to be. But would I advise anyone to get into the program as a freshman, especially girls and/or minorities? Absolutely not.</p>

<p>Thank you for this brave post - You are a very impressive young person. I hope there is a special ring of hell for the faculty who told you not to worry and those who would not look you in your eyes. Please continue to post and let us know where you go from here. The U of A stories are disturbing in many ways, but they really stand out from other cut programs because of the way they are handled. Shameful.</p>

<p>Babar says it well. You deserve much better.</p>

<p>yeah i don't want to go here!</p>