It sounds like it would be an advantage to submit your son’s scores. I know the debate about separating applicants with scores and no scores. It does seem like some colleges are doing this but we don’t know how many and to what extent. One thing Jeff Selingo drives home in his book is that an applicant’s school is evaluated almost as closely as the applicant. If your son comes from an unknown school, his scores (according to Jeff) become more important because they will validate your son’s academic abilities. This apparently helps the AOs take the risk in accepting an applicant from a school that is not known to them.
I agree with you, that and the sophisticated algorithms, but would you give me 1,000-1 odds to make it interesting to me. 
1 Like
I doubt that any engineering program in the United States has an average SAT score of 1570. One of the highest is probably MIT, whose 25/75 range for the full class is 790-800 on Math. The overwhelming portion of MIT students get a near perfect score on math, yet MIT says that they treat any score above 700 in a similar way. MIT’s website explains how they can have such a high score range without requiring admits to have near perfect scores in the quote below.
"there is really not a difference in our process between someone who scores, say, a 740 on the SAT math, and someone who scores an 800 on the SAT math. So why, as the commentor asks, is there such a difference in the admit rate? Aha! Clearly we DO prefer higher SAT scores!*
**Well no, we don’t. What we prefer are things which may coincide with higher SAT scores. For example, a student who receives a gold medal at the IMO is probably more likely to score an 800 on the math SAT than a 740. But if we take an IMO medalist (with an 800) over random applicant X (with a 740), does that mean we preferred an 800 to a 740? No. It means we preferred the IMO medalist, who also happened to get an 800!"
It’s the correlation with other components of the application, such as admitting the IMO medalist, that drives the score so ridiculously high. It’s not that MIT is obsessed with the difference between making 1 vs 3 careless errors on simple multiple choice algebra/geometry type problems on a particular day during HS… problems that do not in any way resemble the ones a student would see during a MIT math course. These other components are still present when going test optional, so the example IMO award winner still probably has a good shot at MIT, even if he is unable to (or choose not to) take the SAT that year due to COVID-19.
While we can discuss rumors or hypotheticals, that’s not what actually happens at the vast majority of test optional colleges… or at least that’s not what happened in previous admission cycles.
For example, the NACAC report that was linked earlier compares the difference in admit rate between submitters and non-submitters at 25 test optional colleges. At 24/25 there was a significant difference in admit rate. At 21/25, submitters had a higher admit rate, while at 3/25 non-submitters had a higher admit rate. However, at 24/25, yield was higher among non-submitters. So even if non-submitters are admitted at a lower rate, they can make up a disproportionately large portion of the entering class. This effect happened in the Ithaca study, which was linked earlier. Stats for the most recent listed year is below. Note that non-submitters had a lower admit rate than submitters, yet non-submitters still made up a larger portion of class than would expected based on the 27% rate among applicants.
27% of applicants did not submit test scores
25% of admits did not submit scores
29% of enrolled students did not submit scores
That’s the norm for Harvard and most other Ivies (not Stanford). It happens every year. As discussed at Updated: 714 students, or 18.5 percent, offered early admission in third year of U.’s early action program - The Princetonian , in one previous year Princeton only rejected 1% of applicants during the early round – less than 50 kids in total. It makes me wonder about the applications of those rare few who were rejected.
Admission is unlikely to be easier in the RD pool than in the early pool, especially at Harvard; so I expect they could have high confidence in the decision. Nevertheless, few get rejected. Many theories have been proposed. Part of it may be keeping the application in the pool if the applicant passes a quick basic qualification, and that there is even the slimmist chance of admission, if they happen to do have some amazing addition to their application and/or something extremely abnormal happens with the RD pool. Part of it may be for more PR type reasons. For example, if kids at a particular HS see that the val with a high score was rejected in EA/ED, it may discourage them from applying in RD. The kid who was rejected also may react negatively. The student population as a whole is probably happier with a deferral than a rejection, although there are many exceptions.
1 Like
Yes, there are times when a deferral is only a pat on the back- for the applicant or for the hs. A message of Good Job. Not more.
If H has 100 kids locked, realize that leaves only about 1100 or so slots in RD.
*** site won’t allow me to edit. 1100 locked.
I think this is so unfortunate. It’s similar to waiting lists that are bigger than the class size. It gives students false hope. I get that it’s kind of a soft no, but in my opinion they’ve taken it to extremes. Thanks for clarifying!
As a resident of Florida, the ONLY state that requires tests this year I find the test optional very unfair. Admissions officers know every student in the state had ample opportunity to take the test. It was offered free in most counties prior to the lockdown and offered many times this fall. My D took it three times, in order to get Bright Futures and secure other scholarships.
Yes life is unfair, but how does a kid from Florida justify not sending scores?
@1NJParent No it’s not fair, especially for kids from Florida who had to take the test. They had no choice. AO’s at OOS and privates know this. They are going to question why the score wasn’t sent. My D sent an OOS’s 25 percentile score to a test optional school. She felt the AO would think she was hiding something. Better to be honest. Maybe the wrong thing to do this year.
@DoingOurBest
I am upset about the test optional as we are from Florida. Everyone knows Florida is the only state where tests are required. Like I said before, how does a Florida kid not send scores, without looking like they are hiding something, even if they are low?
Do you have any idea how bad this sounds? 
6 Likes
Why does it sound bad? It means that students from my kid’s HS will most likely not be going test optional. And whether it sounds “bad” or not, it is the truth. I understand there have been parts of the country where testing was not available, however at her HS they made sure the seniors had 2 testing dates in September and October this year. All of her friends were basically done with testing in December 2019 and for those that were not happy they had two dates this fall to retake.
There’ve been a number of prominint cheating incidents at a number of colleges (West Point, UChicago, Texas A&M, etc.) For every incident that’s reported, there may be hundreds of others that aren’t (e.g. Waterloo reported 1,340 cheating incidents but no specific details).
What about cheating in secondary schools? We haven’t seen much reporting but it’d be hard to believe they’re any different. How much confidence should AOs have in course grades (leaving out grade inflation for the moment)?
same here…there were no kids that we knew of that had high GPAs that did not have at least one SAT under their belt before Covid (I am not saying this did not happen in other areas)
over dinner last night, DS mentioned that so far admissions seem pretty random and several of his friends plan to submit additional applications test optional. in some cases, the kids have 36 on the ACT…they want in the rumored “TO bucket”. it is going to be interesting…
This is absurd. To think that a student would decline to submit a perfect standardized test score, because they think they’ll have an easier admit from the purportedly separate “test optional” pile.
8 Likes
But if almost all other kids are submitting scores from their HS, wouldn’t it be odd if someone applies TO?
1 Like
^^ To have a 36 ACT and not submit it, particularly in response to a rumor, seems to be proof that these tests are not related to intelligence or common sense.
And every year, results seem random. Heck, even back in the mid 70s, our high school val, with all state awards in his sport and top test scores, did not get into Princeton while a B+ student who was a basketball star did. That val, btw, is a tenured prof at a tippy tippy top engineering school now.
9 Likes
if colleges are in fact separating applicants into piles then they would only have other kids from the HS that also went in TO. from the discussion upthread there are many that believe colleges are taking kids at their word and not trying to evaluate whether they had the ability to sit or not (eg. compromised family member, etc)
1 Like
If anyone is misguided enough to design their application based on rumors and hearsay, 1. they deserve whatever the outcome is and 2. they are evidence that high SAT scores don’t correlate perfectly with intelligence and common sense.
I wish two things. One, that people stop extrapolating from their experience to say “everyone” or “most” also have their experience, or should have their experience. Two, I REALLY wish some of you would stop worrying so much about what other people do. Have your kid submit the strongest application they can, which is all they can do, and then let the chips fall where they may.
eta: ha! @gardenstategal we posted at the same time. Great minds 
14 Likes
I’m not sure why anyone thinks it’s unfair for Florida kids. It’s test optional, optional means it’s optional to send. They don’t ask “why aren’t you sending” on most applications. So a kid from Florida is at no more of a disadvantage applying out of state then anyone else. I mean one can say anyone applying to school in Florida is at a disadvantage too since it’s required. What’s a kid from NY supposed to do if their heart was set on FSU and they were never able to take the test
And seriously if someone’s kid was disappointed with a 1570 then that really saddens me. Again no wonder we have such mental health issues in this country.
11 Likes
Well her guidance counselor even asked if my D wanted to retake her 1570… I didn’t think it was necessary, and she in the end agreed. Last year there were 2 kids in her HS that had a 1600. This year at least one (she is going to Harvard). Every school has their own norms in terms of testing expectations. We usually have around 15-20 national merit finalists every year.