My guess is yes.
Itâs fine to throw out arbitrary percentage numbers for fun, but I expect this in no way resembles the actual decision process at any âeliteâ private college in the US. And the listed weightings in no way resemble the degree of influence on the different section sub-ratings found in Harvard lawsuit analysis, or what is suggested in college websites or in the importance weightings of the CDS (the non-stat âthe restâ section is important). There is also a huge variation between different colleges, and in some cases for different groups within the same college.
It might be more meaningful to list a specific college. For that college we might discuss what they currently do and how that is likely to change with being test optional/blind. Some colleges give details about what they look for and/or clues about possible changes in the comments on their websites. For example, MITâs CDS at Common Data Set 2018-19 â MIT Institutional Research lists the following importance ratings for different application criteria:
Very Important â Character and Personal Qualities
Important â Transcript, GPA, Test Scores, Essays, LORs, Interview, ECs, Talent/Ability
Considered â Class Rank
Their website gives the same impression, with statements like the following at What we look for | MIT Admissions
Ask any admissions officer at MIT, and they will tell you that while grades and scores are important, itâs really the match between applicant and the Institute that drives our selection process.
The same page goes into more detail about what they mean by character / personal qualities / match between applicant and MIT / âŠ, stating that they specifically look for alignment with MITâs mission, initiative, risk taking, hands on creativity, character of community, and ability to prioritize. Other colleges often given different types of lists. For example, some imply that volunteer work or similar community values is critical. Others imply that a genuine interest and experience within the prospective field/major is critical. It varies.
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Thank you for your thoughts on this subject. Academics have always been #1 in my world, regardless of what else is stated.
Lol, âthe world according to LF.â To all. In short, every part of the app package is a potential issue. At elites, the competition is that fierce. I have seen plenty of otherwise top performer kids slayed by their essays. By their own hand, so to say. All the writing, including supps, is a measure of their understanding of the college/what it wants to learn, your thoughtfulness and other traits. Youâre trying to create an impression.
Now, itâs not in a 3-4 hour seating at a test center. Presumably, these kids have the time to consider what they will write and work it through. And itâs not the ordinary skills needed to satisfy a high school writing assignment. For many, itâs the first time theyâve undertaken this sort of task.
So, in my world, itâs not possible to assign percent values. The nature of holistic is that itâs not that plain. (Though I think I understand why M put out those numbers.)
Side note: in general, beware the âHarvard lawsuitâ as a source of understanding. Those guys were setting up CYA for years before they had to come to the table. And remember, the CDS is NOT about relative importance. Nor is it precise.
Yes, as @Data10 points out, you have to gain understanding for each college.
Yes, my percentages were aimed to offer an understanding of something with no clear answer. I have found these percentages to work for most instances at most top colleges. Yes, however, if a 4.0, 1600, all AP with 5âs applies to Harvard with absurd essays and a negative recommendation⊠those small percentages becomes insurmountable impediments to an acceptance. Even a âso soâ LOR chose for submission can end a studentâs opportunity. But, assuming no gaffes, I like the percentages as they read. I also think they can be understood by smart parents and students who are not on the inside.
Can I go to sleep soon?
One could make a similar âbewareâ statement about relying on information listed on college websites, which can have a marketing/PR slant or be intentionally vague/misleading. Both the website information and Harvard lawsuit analyses are useful sources of information, but both are also not ideal and can have flaws, particularly when viewed in isolation. However, when both sources and others all point to the same conclusion. then that conclusion is generally more reliable than looking at a single source in isolation.
Also note that my earlier statement about the relative influence of the different application subsections on decision as determined by psuedo r^2 analyses in the Harvard lawsuit was done by Harvardâs representative in the lawsuit, not the Plantiff. The lawsuit also includes Harvard Office of Internal Research studies that were done independently from the lawsuit, which arrived at similar numbers.
Not sure how percentages help understand the matter. For a typical applicant to super-selective college, any aspect of the application package that is not outstanding is a âgaffeâ or a defect that will probably result in rejection. Obviously, an applicant who is outstanding in all aspects of the application package still needs to hit whatever the college wants this year.
Test optional only means that applicants whose only âgaffeâ or defect is a low test score but whose rest of application package is outstanding now have a chance for admission if they hit whatever the college wants this year.
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How did you determine that the percentages work for most instances at top colleges?
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Well first they have to make an academic hurdle and then a test. From there, there are varying degrees of success. Small percentages can still matter most. I donât buy âwhatever the college wants this yearâ at the level some of you might. Not saying it is wrong, but sometimes wants are applicant driven. Colleges donât always know what they want till they get it.
I do not want to be flip, but that would tell you more about me than I wish to share.
@data10, just pointing out that I donât mean anything âmarketingâ or mission statements or the like. Instead, itâs a variety of points learned in a variety of ways, part sleuthing and part logic, to start.
@Michaeluwill, many of us are protective of our details. So be it. And just saying: of course, no matter our engagements or experiences, we only know what we know. Ime, rarely (and only after many years,) can one speak to understanding all regions of kids, all opportunities (or lack) out there, or anticipate consensus, etc. The nature of the beast.
Without going in to a lot of detail about the lawsuit analyses, one of the findings Harvardâs expertâs published in the lawsuit is only 12% of admits only had especially high ratings in single 1 of the 4 core ratings categories â academics, ECs, personal qualities, and athletics. Presumably most of those 12% were recruited athletes, rather than ones who solely excelled in academics, ECs, or personal qualities.
The other 88% all excelled in multiple categories, presumably even the 4.0 + 1600 kids⊠typically excelling in at least 3 of the 4. By âexcelledâ, I mean being well above average within the competitive applicant pool⊠more than just avoiding writing an absurd essay. The unhooked kids in the highest stat decile only had a 14% admit rate. The vast majority of high stat kids were rejected. And many unhooked kids with stats outside of the top decile were accepted instead of the highest stat kids. The acceptance rate was still respectable among unhooked kids with average stats within the application pool. The other non-stat criteria really was influential â both in the written description of how decisions are made and as supported in the accompanied analyses, rather than just avoiding having something bad in âthe rest.,â The LORs appeared to be especially influential.
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Which only works if the test in question is, in theory, âunpreppableâ and in practice, the prep that does happen is privatised, depending on the initiative of the kid or parental resources.
If the test were to actually test what kids learn in public school, schools need a date to work towards in preparing their students. Doesnât have to be national, statewide might work just fine, though somehow it appears to work for AP tests, and the sky hasnât fallen down yet.
Privatising childrenâs access to college entrance qualifications appears to be very âAmericanâ. Would holding public schools accountable for offering that access (as in teaching to and offering the tests that matter, on site, free of charge, at appropriate dates) be âun-Americanâ?
I agree with all the advantages you list except for test prepâŠthere are very few that pay for test prep any longer in our area, using Khan Academy instead.
The kids that are using test prep are not very good students to begin with.
Does nobody opt out of this? I remember a parent trying to rope me in to some crazy carpool when my kids were in elementary school for the âbestâ karate studio in the area. I declined- with two working parents, a commute, etc. the last thing I needed was an extra curricular activity! Anyone- said parent actually told me âgood luck getting your kid into college with your attitudeâ.
I think my son was 8? So we said no to tennis lessons, no to karate, traveling soccer, fencing (which became a âthingâ out of nowhere), no to âenrichmentâ-- and somehow we survived the EC arms raceâŠ
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âThe kids that are using test prep are not very good students to begin with.â
What leads you to believe this? I think you could get some blowback from many parents. âPrepâ covers a lot of skills needed to approach the tests, can be as simple as getting comfortable with the format, itself. One could think of it as polishing existing skills.
Thereâs nothing inherently wrong with prepping. Over time, kids get coaching (or guidance) in many areas. We donât always send them out cold, as if just throwing them in the pool is something so special.
What I find ridiculous is those who pay huge sums. Or drive themselves into a frenzy. Or take the test x times and ask on CC if they should try again, to take some great score closer to perfection.
Think about it.
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Paying big bucks for fast prep is unnecessary. Test prep in our family is/was Khan Academy and the test prep booklet. The goal was not to learn content, but to learn the question format and time management.
I donât believe one can prep for the content tested on the SAT. Kids either know Algebra 2 or they donât. My children did learn the tested content in school, not because their teachers âtaught to the test,â but because they are avid readers and advanced math students. I realize there are systemic issues and kids at underfunded schools do not receive the same quality of teaching and may not learn the content at the level needed to do well on standardized tests. I feel bad for those kids, but there are paths to college that do not require standardized test scores.
Here, the SAT is administered in the spring for all seniors at no cost. We opt out and pick dates that work for our family.
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For someone who is naturally good at, or deeply interested in, certain things, thereâre never stresses for doing those things, whether theyâre soccer, violins, âŠ, or standardize testing. If we push kids to do things they arenât interested in or good at, that will likely result in stresses. Thereâre kids stressed out by all their ECs and thereâre kids who are stressed out by testing. But thereâre also kids who excel at their chosen ECs and thereâre kids who get perfect SAT scores when they were 8th graders. Every kid is different. Thereâs currently another active thread in which a parent asks what his 5-year-old daughter should do to prepare for college. No wonder thereâre complaints about stresses.
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I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. That your kids were somehow born knowing algebra 2? That they picked it up by themselves reading algebra books that were somehow just sort of around? Or that they actually picked it up in school after all? But by accident, because teachers in school teaching algebra 2 has somehow nothing to do with the SAT testing, itâs just something some teachers sort of come up with? Or that no kid that doesnât know algebra 2 by high school can ever learn it by gasp, going to algebra class in school? They just have to know?
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My D21âs test prep consisted of her taking a handful of practice tests in her bedroom
in the weeks leading up to the test, mostly to familiarize herself with the format. She had taken the SAT (albeit the older version) as a 12 year old and PSAT in 10th grade with zero prep, and had done quite well, so she was not worried too much. Not sure if the SAT is really an aptitude test, but she had taken an IQ test as a 6 year old and is considered âhighly giftedâ. Honestly taking the SAT was probably the least stressful part of her HS experience.
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