“The interview is not the least important aspect. Every piece is important.”
Every piece may be important but they can’t all be of equal importance. Because colleges can’t guarantee they interview everyone who applies, it would be unfair for it to be held against anyone for not having one. If adcoms say (in their sessions) not to worry if you don’t have an interview, how can it be of equal importance to grades or rigor?
“In the CDS, ~60% of publics (who fill out relevant section) say they consider both LORs and essays in their decision. A good portion of their public college admission websites specifically use the word “holistic” when describing their applicant evaluation system.”
Well CA and TX, two of the larger public systems, have auto admit for kids who are in the top of their class, purely based on gpa and test scores. Yes UT-Austin is top 6%, but the others in TX are 10% and 25%. CA is top-9%, and it doesn’t mean you’re in at UCLA or Berkeley, but you know you’ll get into a UC based on stats.
“how do you know about all this supposed bias and its effect? Don’t tell me it’s human nature.”
Biases have been studied for a long time by scientists, economists etc., what is known is that the biases are subconscious, so people don’t even know they have many of them. The top effect is typically in decision making (good or bad).
“Try to take out the bias that has crept in ( legacy etc).”
That’s probably not going to happen, unlearning a bias which you don’t even think you have is tough.
This isn’t about theoretical bias. The top holistics aim to eliminate bias. It’s entirely possible to control.
And sorry, but considering the competition, a problem with any one aspect of the app package can set a kid back. You want a kid with, say, a poor, off-track essay when 10 others meet expectations? It’s that brutal.
If an interview happens, the report matters. Kids who never respond to an interview request or go awol after initial contact…that’s a problem.
Don’t leave reviewers guessing, nor assume they’ll make excuses for a kid.
An applicant is expected to put his or her best foot forward.
Ps. The Common App folks ask all colleges using it to review holistically. To what extent any primarily rack and stack does this, it doesn’t change that the top holistics are looking at the complete picture. And it’s not just about the volume of competition. These elites expect a high level of thinking skills. That includes how one approaches the app/supp, how they choose to position themselves, whether it’s on target or seems random or detached.
We’re talking actual biases and they really can’t be eliminated, yes you can reduce them by having a diverse group of adcoms look at the app. The TM Landry story where the school manufactured applications for low-SES, black students from LA was probably the most obvious case of bias :
"for its students designed to appeal to Ivy League admissions officers looking for inspirational stories,… many admissions officers are keen to identify those students, those stories, and create those bridges to opportunity…He (Michael Landry seems to have coerced and staged a play that he knew would work for his audiences,”
If the interview happens, of course you can’t do poorly in it, my point was that if you don’t have interview, you’re still in the running, if you don’t submit your transcript, you’re out.
You need to revisit the high level of thinking skills, we know that recruited athletes (15% of the class at top holistics) do not need to display that. They do need good academics (gpa, scores) but once the coach vouches for him or her, no need for them to put in a great app.
There are some obvious and systemic ways to eliminate bias.
In the US it is not the custom to put a photo of oneself on the resume. It is in other parts of the world. Requiring a photo has been linked to several forms of bias. There are some fields (acting and modeling) where professionally done photos ARE part of the assessment process, and legal. But there is no need to ask for a photo for a financial analyst or a supply chain manager.
There was a time when the Ivy League schools DID require (or strongly suggest in some cases) a photo. This period of time coincided with the quotas on Jewish students, and by the “token” admission of 3-4 Black students- all of whom would be housed together in the same dorm.
So no, I don’t believe that bias can’t be eliminated. Giving more “points” to playing squash as an extra-curricular activity, vs. taking grandma to the doctor and acting as her translator-- not hard to eliminate that. Squash is great. So is being the link between a non-English speaking family member and her medical providers.
Last names, parent occupations, zip codes…less impact than many think.
Bottom line is that there’s a lot to get through in an app package. And the package is offered by the student. It’s done well or not. It reflects his/her thinking, assumptions, alertness and more.
I empathize with the challenge it is. But you deal with what you get, the impressions formed.
So rather than, once again, just laying this on the colleges or adcoms, claiming bias, eg, why not try the perspective of what the applicants’ responsibilities are?
I’d like more to drop the assumptions and focus on what matters more.
In the absence of complete information, assumptions have to be made. Even AOs with full access to a complete application would have to make some assumptions about the applicant, do they not? They haven’t met the applicant. They don’t know the veracity of every little piece of information they’re reviewing. They don’t know how much help the applicant had in crafting his/her essays. They don’t know if the application has been professionally packaged for their consumption.
Yes, there’re a lot in the application package. Even if every one of us on CC had a peek on the entire package, we undoubtedly wouldn’t come to the same conclusion for every applicant. We all have our our own preferences, cultural stereotypes, and yes, biases, unconsciously or not.
The applicant doesn’t have to just rely on assumptions. You know I keep asking them to dig deeper than that. To try. To rise to that challenge. It’s not transferring to another hs. It’s the College Leap.
These are tough colleges to get into. Kids can see there’s a multipoint app.
It doesn’t help ours to just throw up our hands(often from the start) and go with assumptions. So I ask them to take some responsibility, invest in digging. It happens to be wise advice in life: not to go on the first thing you think. Or what someone else says.
And it’s a circular argument to keep saying, “well, they haven’t revealed the formula, so it’s impenetrable.” You want a tippy top to come tell you? How’s that signal a success mindset?
So no, they won’t have test scores for each applicant. And some posters think scores are so important that a holistic elite adcom is what, lost, confused, tosses a coin 45k times? And it’s unfair cuz…they haven’t told you the formula in line order? It’s there, so many times. Enough to start thinking. It’s not about a job half done.
I was actually talking about assumptions made by AOs, not assumptions made by applicants. About assumptions made by applicants, I agree that they should dig deep and learn as much about the college and all its offerings. However, at the end of the day, even with their best efforts and their attention to every little hint from the college, they’ll still have to make assumptions, because some of the information they receive from the college is purposely obscure, and more importantly, subject to different interpretations.
No one expects to be handed a formula or recipe for admission to a super-selecitve college, because such formula or recipe truly doesn’t exist for the vast majority of applicants. Colleges understandably want to retain full discretion over who they want to admit, but they shouldn’t pretend that there’s no arbitrariness in their decisions.
Brown does not require but request that you upload a video in which you at least begin with you in the screenshots…the modern day equivalent of a photo.
Yep, my son is working on this Brown video today I hope! He wasn’t too excited about showing his face with all its teen acne… so here we are on the day it’s due.
For someone who doesn’t like assumptions you make a lot about these kids - wanting formulas, throwing up hands, not digging, not taking respsonsibility, thinking that college is high school. In fact there a lot of kids that don’t have the characteristics you keep talk about that get in to these selective colleges.
Oh, dear.
I speak from my particular experience, no more/no less. And obviously many disagree with me. Fine.
But you and I do have plenty of overlap.
I don’t want to make this debate, not looking for accolades.
God, no! I hope my son doesn’t find out! He’s submitted everything at the last moment so far despite all my cajoling, and his early college schedule starts back on the 13th so we’ve made that the final, final, deadline. I’m ready for him to be done!
About that. S21 and I watched a few samples on YouTube, and they were very slick. Lots of high quality directing and editing. Honestly, I thought they were over the top. I told my kid to just sit in front of his webcam and talk about what he is passionate about (which is related to his academic interests) so the AOs could just get to know the authentic, unedited him.
