The best thing about test optional is the demise of the College Board and ACT. Their duopoly resulted in absolutely terrible customer service and they are very deserving of this fate. I thought they might improve a bit during the AP exams last year as perhaps they would realize they needed to up their game, but they certainly did not.
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One issue is that ACT and CB have to figure out how to administer their tests (including APs) securely online, on the studentsâ computers. I really donât know if they can do that.
I say on the studentsâ computers because testing sites donât have the technology to offer millions of tests on school owned computers. For example, when ACT announced the computer based section only retakes (were to start in fall 2020, supposedly will now start this fall), our top public high school (large, affluent) said they have no intention of ever offering those because they donât have the computers and technology to do so. If this school isnât going to do it, that says a lot.
Will be interesting to see how testing develops. For the 25 or so states still using SAT or ACT for HS grad requirements, will they continue to do that? Will they develop their own test like Cali? Will the Biden administration have any new programs/answers? Lots of moving parts.
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Crossing two sub-threads here, I took the AIME as a kid. Besides my very low score (itâs been a long time, but âneither a prime nor a composite numberâ), what I remember was that you bubbled in 3-digit numbers as answers.
One thing that I dislike about the SAT (and others like it) is that test prep is a real advantage. You donât need to solve the problems, you just need to quickly eliminate or plug-in answers. In fact, actually solving the problems can confer a time disadvantage.
One way to make the various standardized math more discerning is to have people bubble in a 3-digit answer to each question, which removes a lot of the test prep advantage and forces people to actually solve/master the material.
Very easy to get 800 on marh portion of the SAT as compared to placing highly in national/international math contests. Naturally the kids taking these math contests are outliers in math( a tiny fraction of the whole unlike the almost 100% of college bound who take the SAT/ACT).
I think part of the problem this year is that the uncertainities, both due to TO and other factors, have dramatically increased applications to the top schools (which is what we are talking about here). And there is a feedback loop that compounds the problem. The more uncertainty, the more apps kids feel like they need to submit. The more apps that are being submitted, the more the incertainty. So even more apps get submitted. So even more uncertainty. So still more apps. Wash, rinse, repeat.
There will undoubtedly be a few kids who are the complete package, but for whatever reason even in a normal year would not have ever been able to get a confirming test score. Could be lots of different reasons, maybe a bad test taker, but also maybe was sick one day, found out mom had cancer the day before the second test, who knows.
My hunch is that the number of these students is pretty small. If you have the grades/recs/ECâs/random factors to impress the adcoms at Harvard or MIT or (insert school here), more than 99% of the time in a normal year either you would be able to have a confirming test, or there is some reason that for you they wouldnât require it anyway (more flexibility due to extenuating circumstances). The kids who canât get in the 30s on the ACT probably also have some other defect in their resume. Not defect in the normal sense, they may well still be a 99th percentile kid. But a defect that even a 36 on the ACT wouldnât overcome for holistic admissions at the tippy top schools.
I think the more likely thing that will keep some 36 (or whatever) kid out of a school they might get into in a normal year wonât be the TO factor itself. It will be because the random factor is increased when apps are up 20% or 40% or whatever they end up being. Even if TO goes away next year (unlikely) everyone is going to have much lower acceptance rates this year. So that means next year people are going to want to put in more apps. This feedback loop and the problems it creates are going to continue to get worse. We were on that track already, COVID just accelerated it.
I donât know if there is a practical way to do this, and as far as I know I havenât seen anyone with any power advocating for it. But it sure seems like if there could be some matching system put in place like they have for medical residencies it would benefit everyone.
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Just a clarification about discussing apps being up at top schools, âtop schoolsâ meaning the vast majority of top 100 universities, not just tippy top. Admission changes affect good, non-superstar students applying broadly across the top 100.
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Agree. Maybe I could have been more clear. I think that everything I said applies to probably top 100Uâs, and maybe top 50 LACâs (honestly not sure where exactly to draw the line in either category, but certainly broader that HYPSM schools). I suppose when you are looking at Harvard v. Northeastern v. Boston College the number you expect to help you changes a bit, but the logic I think applies all the way down to whereever the line is where schools are not seeing markedly increased apps.
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Do you really think that top students 99% of the time have matching test scores?
IMO, the applicant pool is filled with kids from low-medium-& high ranking schools. The low and medium schools are much easier to achieve high grades and accolades. These kids think they are on the same academic level as the kids from highly ranked schools. They arenât. The SAT/ACT would have confirmed this, now it is shrugged off.
So kids who essentially have done more intense work are competing against those who wouldnât have made the baseline.
In many sports, you need to have a qualifying score to move forward. Yes, they can have a group that doesnât make the base and still competes. Do they win? No.
There is a general trend in education to make everything less academic and more holistic. Students need to be aware of this. But saying tests donât matter because you, or your kid doesnât score highly is essentially reducing the academic scope at the expense of holistic decisions. Some mentioned 50/50 decision making. What?$& For my kids, I donât want to pay for an education that is built on a cohort that is academically weaker. I think itâs great that someoneâs kid volunteers but I also want to make sure the classroom level of discussion is held high.
I suspect lots of kids who would not have applied/had gotten rejections will now be in the classroom thinking their dog volunteering makes up for academic preparation.
I also believe the trend is for more participation trophies and comparisons of non-similar achievements. The SAT & ACT are likely going away.
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Your comments make you seem like such an elitist snob. Perhaps the kid who spent his/her time volunteering has a life experience that would benefit a classroom discussion rather than diminish it. To say your child would be adversely affected by sitting in class with such a student truly baffles me. I have 3 kids. The oldest went to very challenging academic private school, and believe me the awards were a joke. Almost every kid receives one because the school wants all the students to have top notched resumes. She ended up with a very high SAT score because the school had a semester long SAT prep class as part of the curriculum. My son is a senior this year. He went to the local high school where as a white male is in the minority. He is an outstanding pitcher and wanted the opportunity to play ball at a higher level than private school. Guess what, his SAT is lower because he had to study in his own and didnât have the opportunity to take the test multiple times due to the pandemic. He was being recruited by some Ivyâs before the college seniors got an extra year of eligibility. Sucks for him. Is my daughter smarter than my son because she went to an elite school and made a better SAT score. NO! She would admit her brother is smarter. Some of you have very little empathy for those kids in different situations than you. Oh, and he applied test optional.
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Even in a normal year, some applicants who took the SAT/ACT do not report their scores. For example, students applying to highly selective schools are often advised to take both the SAT and the ACT in order to identify which one they prefer. The applicant then submits the score(s) only from the test where they perform better. As I understand it, test scores from the other test are not reported.
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https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED562878.pdf suggests that the overall pool of SAT takers is made up of 68% non-discrepent (HS GPA and SAT are as expected relative to each other), 16.2% HS GPA discrepent (HS GPA higher than expected for SAT), and 15.8% SAT discrepent (SAT higher than expected for HS GPA).
Just to point out that widespread admissions testing was originally adopted as an attempt to âdemocratizeâ higher education, beginning about a century ago now in the United States.
Weâve come full circle. The criteria for selection have changed - no longer is a WASP pedigree from Groton favored - but the gatekeepers of college admissions are still firmly in charge, and with even less objective accountability seemingly every day.
No sour grapes, my own DS21 was accepted at a T5 university early and we expect a number of other T20 acceptances in the regular decision round, but I do strongly believe that the constant diminution of objective measurements is misguided.
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The assumptions underlying your argument are flawed. In your 1st para (I canât quote on my phone) you say kids from weaker schools, who are weaker would be revealed by the test score. But I think you are missing the bigger point, that if an applicant is âall thatâ it is shown in other aspects of their application. That weaker student will have a weaker application even though the GPAs are the same. Give AOâs at selective schools more credit! They actually can figure this out.
I also find your characterization that those of us saying tests are less important have lower test scores (or our kids do) offensive. You know nothing about us. And in my familyâs case this is untrue.
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There is a valid point IMO in the post.
There is a notable difference in a class where everyone is at the same level vs a class where some are not, especially in STEM. The class is not able to cover the same material at depth.
I do not think anyone is saying the kids cannot get to the level with time and effort but the point is that they are not there yet and are restraining the class.
So that tell you quite a bit. Many of the low standardized scorers are perhaps in a group of high GPA/low test (might indicate an inflated GPA), low GPA and high test scores ( might indicate lack of initiative). Both are useful data points for an AO. Naturally, itâs not just the score itâs the whole app.
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Actually, no one is saying that YOUR child has any type of scores or grades. You are internalizing that. What I said is that many on CC ( and you can search for examples) want to emphasis/leave out parts of the application to help their kids. Thereâs no harm in that. Everyone should have the best application possible.
What is a problem is those who think that their application minus salient points equals or exceeds someone elseâs.
@bbs1022 I donât think your childâs experience at a single private school has relevance for everyone at all types of schools.
Iâm not an elitist snob but I do believe in excellence. I am also someone who think that stats matter. I also think that some of this stuff doesnât matter.
So we have a difference of opinion. If my kid is in a STEM class with yours, I donât care about anything but the rigor of the course. The dog volunteering has no bearing. ( Except if itâs a veterinary based course).
What folks on CC seems to swear by and you are making the point is, my kids soft qualities matter more than any academic qualities. I totally refute that.
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Interesting . I must admit that I AM an elitist snob in some ways! 
We will have to agree to disagree. I think âsoft skillsâ will carry one a lot farther than someone who is solely, or mostly, âbook smartâ. And this is from someone who went to a T3 law school, with all the grades and testing that implies. But as I said, itâs ok that we donât see eye to eye on this.
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But then this new test would have to deal with the logistics of making it available nationwide (or worldwide). It would also have to convince students to take it, because some who may be great fits from the point of view of the colleges using the test may not bother because (to the students) it is another hundred hours of prep (in these days where intensive prep is the norm) for a test for one or a few colleges that the student may be interested in.
Also, it looks like SAT subject tests, non-default tests used by only a limited number of colleges, are going away.
No, I am totally in favor of the soft skills. Believe me, I think they are even more critical at life success. But I donât think soft skills should crowd out academic skills in the application process. There are enough applicants at so many colleges to get both. Hence, why I am in favor of standardized tests ( but I understand why others donât like them). I like having a baseline and then adding to see which are the best candidates rather than having someone with a hole in their candidacy move along.
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