<p>Hi all, here is the deal. Our D has got a full ride to a couple of univesities in our state. They even pay for books, study abroad etc. COA is close to $50K in one of those colleges and we don't have to pay a penny. She wants to do pre-med. Wash U gave her almost no aid ( well no grants anyway ) although we have requested a review of the FA package. Is Wash U's pre-med program worth spending more than $160K ( I am assuming they will give us some aid upon review; if not we have to foot the $200K bill ) now? Given that she is definitely going to do Med school should we keep the cash and let her use it for Med school rather than now for UG at Wash U?</p>
<p>JMHO… no. I am in a similar situation with my S, and, while WashU is a great school, I’ve decided that it’s not worth THAT much more than our state U. The key is that he attend a school where he will have internship and research opportunities, and our state flagship has it’s own well-regarded med school. Save your money for med school.</p>
<p>If my S selects WashU, some of the cost difference will be done with loans that he is responsible for.</p>
<p>(BTW, I did call the FA office, but there was no additional help – oh well.)</p>
<p>Since you are just asking for opinions (what else is there in a case like this) here is mine. Full ride all the way, unless you think she will be miserable at Big State University. Hopefully they have a good Honors program or Honors College where she can be with kids closer to her level. That’s the hardest part of giving up a Wash U for BSU, the peers she would be around. And no question that the level of academics at Wash U is higher than most BSU’s, the courses more rigorous. Even with all that, we made the decision to save the money, although D not going med school, more likely a PhD. But after we made that decision it turned out we didn’t have to after all.</p>
<p>Our situation was that she got full tuition + half R/B at very highly ranked State Honors College, full tuition at Tulane, nothing from Wash U except acceptance. No way was I going to qualify for need based aid, but would be a very hard stretch to do $50K a year. Either that or she comes out with big debt. So she decided that even if Tulane didn’t come through with the big bucks, she was going with the Honors College.</p>
<p>Trust me, I know it is a tough thing to swallow, Wash U was her first choice and she loved it there when she visited. Really suited her. But she is a mature and practical sort, and realizes how much happier she will be not having all that debt later. Besides, people will focus on where she went to grad school (med school for your D), not undergrad.</p>
<p>So as long as your D does well in her courses, her MCAT’s and is diligent about doing things during the summers that med schools look for now, like shadowing doctors, she will be fine. When Tulane then came through with the full scholarship for my D, the nameplate issue went away. Although Wash U is a higher ranked school than Tulane, it certainly wasn’t nearly the issue that it would have been of Big State U vs. Wash U.</p>
<p>In short, unless you think she will just not be happy at all at BSU, save the money for med school.</p>
<p>This seems to be a repetitive theme all over the CC threads. Free StateU vs pricey Private U for undergrad when your student THINKS they are headed to medical school. I posted this on another WashU thread, but I don’t think it can be said enough - </p>
<p>**So many students seem to make the decision about which school to attend based on something they may or may not do 4 years down the road. I read over on the premed thread that only 10% of student who enter college on the premed track finish that way. Not just in the area of premed, but a large percentage of students change their major once exposed to an array of college classes.</p>
<p>Finances always have to be part of the equation, but students should chose their school based on which school they think will provide them with the undergraduate experience they desire.**</p>
<p>And if you really want to question your decision about whether or not to figure out a way to make the pricey PrivateU work, read this absolutely incredible post from hyeonjlee over on the Parents Forum. If you think you have a kid like this, you come up with a way to make it happen.</p>
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<p>(post shorten slightly from its original version)</p>
<p>Great posts fallenchemist and MWP! I was touched by hyeonjlee’s post, MWP.
Sorry I should have said one of the two colleges D has got admission to is a private university. The other one is our state flagship. D has got into the honors program at both schools. Class sizes are small at the private U. Average GPA of incoming HS students is 3.7.
D will be visiting Wash U in a couple of weeks. We are keeping our fingers crossed at this point.</p>
<p>Hi MWP - You and I agree on most things, but here I think you misstate the premise. The main question wasn’t “Is Wash U worth it because of the quality of its pre-med program” but instead it is “Is Wash U worth going deeply into debt for, given her plans for the future”. So I don’t exactly disagree with your post, but I think your quote:</p>
<p>“Finances always have to be part of the equation, but students should chose (sic) their school based on which school they think will provide them with the undergraduate experience they desire”</p>
<p>understates the finance part and hence overstates the remainder a bit. Yes, students change their minds on majors all the time. Everything else being equal or close to equal I completely agree with you, and therefore totally discourage someone from picking a school simply because they think it has a better premed program, or chemistry department, or philosophy department. But I also think that in the situation under consideration here, one has to look beyond the 4 years of bliss and happiness and think of what that amount of crushing debt could mean.</p>
<p>Let’s imagine, for example, you are right and the student changes her mind and decides to be an anthropology major. Let’s further assume she decides to go on to a PhD at Harvard for it. Here she is, potentially $300,000 in debt with a PhD in anthropology. Yes, she had a great experience at Washington University, but now there is a stark reality of starting one’s career with debt the size of a house.</p>
<p>Framed another way, we are being asked to determine what the value of a Wash U education is relative to other alternatives. Is it worth the money is the question. Of course there is no right answer to that; a $100,000 Mercedes is worth it to some people, I would never spend that on a car even if I had millions (well, maybe if I had many millions). To me there is no value in a car that does more than get you from A to B comfortably and reliably, but others feel very differently. Here, I am saying there is certainly extra value in a Wash U experience compared to alternatives, but $160K-$200K? I didn’t think so, you felt differently as you and I have discussed. It was the right decision for you and your D. This family has to decide which way it falls for them. But I don’t think this hinges around the point you and I agree on, which is you shouldn’t pick a school SIMPLY because you think it is better for one area of study or another, or the corallary, for its nameplate.</p>
<p>One of the other two i’d say. the idea of starting off wid so much debt scares me!!</p>
<ol>
<li>Finances should ALWAYS be considered - if you have crunched the numbers and there is no way you can make it happen at WashU, you can’t take the risk.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t think I “misstated the premise”. Nowhere in the OP’s question does he ask - “Is Wash U worth going deeply into debt for, given her plans for the future”. Nowhere are the words “crushing debt” used. Rather the question asked was, “Given that she is definitely going to do Med school should we keep the cash and let her use it for Med school rather than now for UG at Wash U?” HUGE difference. </p>
<p>Does it hurt to turn your back on those free rides? From a family who has, you have no idea! When friends and family tell us we’ve lost our mind when we say, “No, our D turned down those offers and we are paying nearly full freight for her to attend WashU” - to them we say, THEY have no idea. Until you have experienced a school like WashU or Northwestern or Un of Chicago, etc. YOU really have no idea of what a huge difference there is. BUT, it has to be a difference YOUR STUDENT desires.</p>
<ol>
<li>I was just trying to make the point (over and over) to look at the undergraduate experience by itself for that experience alone. What school is the best fit for your student? Only YOUR STUDENT can decide that. Then it is up to the parent to go back to point #1 to decide if they can make it happen. Our oldest decided the honors program at StateU was where SHE wanted to go and did just great there. Younger D was looking for a totally different experience all together. After two years at WashU, we know it was the best decision for HER and cannot see her at her other choices. Your students might decide FOR THEMSELVES that the free ride public or the free ride private or the full tuition private is EXACTLY where they belong. That is always a wonderful senerio! But, don’t tell yourself that the honors program at StateU is the same as the education at a school such as WashU - there is just no comparison.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>Also wanted to mention - </p>
<p>**Not all private schools are equal. D was offered a four year free ride ($130,000 at the time) to a private school ranked in the 80s by USNews. Nice little school. She attended classes that she felt weren’t much beyond what her weak h.s. provided, talked students who took the free ride offer who said they were only there for the money and it wouldn’t have been their first choice, had the school tell her there was no way she could double major and do the premed prepreqs, etc. etc.</p>
<p>**No 18 year old freshman knows that they are “definitely going to do Med school”. Too many variables. Premed forum says only 10% of kids who start on the premed track take that to fruition. More than half of students who apply to med school are rejected by every single school they apply to. 18 year olds change their mind over the course of four years. As I have said before, older D was a biology major on the premed track the first two years of college, did a 180 and headed a completely different direction. H (who is a physician) always says, “She would have been such a good doctor”. Yes, she would have, but now she is going to be a fabulous something else! But, younger D seems to be barreling straight toward the goal of med school - but, it still remains to be seen IF she is accepted.</p>
<p>He said no aid, so a simple calculation = big bucks. I agree he said “Is Wash U’s pre-med program worth spending more than $160K…”, but I think the pre-med part is not the issue. He could just have easily said, given her offers, “Is Wash U worth spending more than $160K”. Therefore it becomes a value calculation, which is my point. I would maintain that it would take a pretty huge difference in the quality of schools to make Wash U worth $200,000 more than somewhere else. Of course if $200,000 is easily affordable, then there is no question. I didn’t get the idea that $200K was easily affordable from his OP, but hey, maybe he is loaded and just tight with money, LOL. I have no idea. That gets to the crux of the matter, which is where they stand in that equation.</p>
<p>I disagree with you that there is a practical meaning to doing your #2 and then go back to #1. For most families they are inextricably tied together. Yes, you can alter the equation either by having big bucks so that it is not a factor, get a merit scholarship to the Wash U type school in which case this point is moot, or choose to place the value of a Wash U, Chicago, etc. education so high that it tips the equation to sacrifice mode, to whatever degree that sacrifice is. That last is the value judgement part I am talking about.</p>
<p>I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I just think you say that finances are always a consideration, and then basically negate that by saying that if your student desires a Wash U education enough, then you should make it happen no matter what. That means to me that you put the value of that experience so high that you think people should try to make it happen no matter what it means for the future when they are done with undergrad, and I think that there has to be more of a balance between the the financial and educational factors. Clearly there is a point at which you would have had to say there was no way you could have afforded it, no matter how incredible the education. $50K just wasn’t that number. Maybe $75K would have been. Maybe $65K. Whatever the break point, it becomes a value judgement, no matter how great a fit Wash U would be. That break point is just different for different families.</p>
<p>And again, while I agree that many kids change their minds about their major, of course it is not true that "No 18 year old freshman knows they are ‘definitely going to med school’ ". Clearly most think they know and some do make it. I think your point is valid when it comes to choosing schools ASIDE FROM the financial considerations. I have said the same many times. Taking finance out of the equation, the student should go where they think they will like it best. Putting finance back into the equation, of course that student may change majors, but they may change to law school, or decide to go on to a liberal arts PhD in which case there may still be no financial support from the grad school. Therefore one still has to think ahead to those possibilities, and not put so many financial eggs in that undergrad basket there is nothing left to eat when the four years are over.</p>
<p>Don’t get this wrong. Our D loves WashU and so do we ( my wife and I ). How I wish our EFC was just $10K! That would be a whole different story.</p>
<p>Yep, kind of my point. And was my situation exactly also, in terms of EFC. Just didn’t qualify, and even if they took into account my rather unusual circumstances her first year, it would be year-to-year and that was just tough to justify compared to guaranteed full tuition at Tulane, no matter how much it goes up.</p>
<p>I truly wish you and your daughter the best of luck. Let us know what she (and you!) decides.</p>
<p>My S got into washu,northwetern,emory & georgetown…premed</p>
<p>No fin aid</p>
<p>He also got into saint louis university…68 K scholarship for 4 years…costs me 93 k
as a med scholar
guaranteed medical admission as long as he maintains 3.5 GPA
MCAT needed but not counted for admission</p>
<p>He also got into 6 year med school @ UMKC…kansas city @ 200 k for 6 years</p>
<p>It is very difficult to make a decision</p>
<p>Our friend’s son was in same boat last year debating between Yale and a full ride at a OOS public university. S chose the public university where he would get more personal attention and opportunities - again money was no factor for them they could have afforded Yale. YEs you do have to be a go getter at any university - nothing comes for free anywhere. It is what the child make of their own undergrad education taht counts. But it seems colodad has a choice between a private univ too with the full ride scholarship. Who woudl want to give that up unless money is no factor for the parents in which case there is no question.</p>
<p>Hello stanley1, if money is a concern St Louis Univ seems to be the logical choice. Your S can get good GPA and MCAT scores and go to a different Med school if he chooses to.</p>
<p>Thanks Colo dad</p>
<p>Money is concern…200 K .</p>
<p>50 percent of the premeds drop out @ wash u.</p>
<p>80 %of the successful premeds get into medical school …These are the stats available on the internet.</p>
<p>He can have 100 K downpayment towards his medical school.</p>
<p>Hearing about how few of the pre-med students actually get to apply to med school(s) and how few get admitted to one, and how few make it to a top med school is really, really scary.</p>
<p>
Any student is allowed to apply to medical school. There is no one or no school that keep you from applying. You do that all by yourself via on the on-line AMCAS application. Schools will advise you that you might not be a strong candidate to be admitted, but no one can tell you that you can’t apply. Many of the 50-60% who are accepted nowhere are probably those who didn’t have a strong enough record (GPA, MCAT, shadowing, research, volunteerism, etc.) to apply.</p>
<p>If 50% of WashU’s premeds STAY premed all four years, that is actually a pretty good statistic. If you go over on the Premed Topics Forum, they state that only 10% of students who start premed follow that to fruition. You start taking classes in college, you find something else that interests you. You start taking the chems, orgos, bios, physics, etc. and decide they are not for you, etc. </p>
<p>Also, I believe that the WashU admit to medical school statistic is higher than 80%.</p>
<p>coloDad - On the other hand, don’t we want our doctors to be the best of the best? I know it doesn’t always work out that way, but at least we are hopefully filtering out most of the truly incompetent people.</p>
<p>Anyway, I tend to agree with your advice to Stanley1. Since money is a concern, if the kid maintains his desire to pursue med school and has what it takes to get the grades, then the SLU program seems like a good deal, given the guaranteed acceptance to med school. Wash U is definitely a better school, and has a way nicer campus and all that, but one does have to be practical.</p>
<p>Go with the state school. Give your kid some extra spending money to make up for it.</p>