<p>coloDad I was Googling some stats and this came up from the DU site. You may have already seen it but thought I would pass it along.</p>
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<p>Thanks again MWP, fallenchemist, luked1629 and macunix for your posts. So, I am hearing that as long as our D works hard she has a fighting chance to get into med school from Wash U, CU or DU. That makes me feel slightly better.</p>
<p>People are always asking on the WashU forum, "Do I pay the big $$$ and go to WashU for undergrad for go to “xxxU” on a scholarship and save my money for medical school? I saw the following two posts by current medical students over on the premed topics forum. I was really SHOCKED at what a high percentage of students top medical schools accept from top 20 undergraduate schools!</p>
<p>This medical student attends University of Chicago, Pritzker School of Medicine.</p>
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<p>Another medical student -</p>
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<p>Colodad, it’s very difficult to figure out where the chances to get into med school are the best for a student. Though anyone can apply to medical school, some colleges have a system in place that make it very difficult to buck. They have a committee that pretty much gate keeps by only giving references to those they feel are best qualified to go to medical school.</p>
<p>Also many schools have a gauntlet in terms of a premed program that eliminates many students who start out premed. A couple of C’s can end your chances for medical school and such kids usually do not bother to apply, which makes the numbers higher. Some schools that boast 90-100% admitted to med school have gate keeping and gauntlet measures that make these statistics look better than they truly are.</p>
<p>In my opinion, most kids who want to go to medical school do best in a school that provides a lot of personal attention and work with the students to succeed in the pre med courses. If you see a steep grade curve for chemistry, regular or O-chem, you know that premed busting is in effect. A good gpa is very important to getting into med school, especially in the sciences. So a top notch research school or big state u is not the best place for a lot of kids who may need some stoking and encouragement. On the other hand, the truly top kids with the 5’s on the AP sciences and lot of knowledge already in the maths and sciences particularly, having gone to a competitive highs school with tough courses, are ready for the Johns Hopkins, Wash U, CMU, Cornell, Uchicago premed regiments that can offer them challenges and research opportunities.</p>
<p>It is strange how some parents look down on state universities like that. I guess being able to afford a huge debt and perhaps pushing that debt on to the kids is something easy for many. But think rationally…if your child worked hard and secured great grades K-12 being in a public school and competed with students who perhaps went to a private school would you not be able to trust your child to shine anywhere they went. Yes, a dream school where a parent pays big bucks is a dream for many. But does that mean state universities do not thrive and do not produce excellent students? Why are we so biased against them. I personally have known several students to have done that! But that again is just my opinion…</p>
<p>I think the statistics MWP cites are interesting, but I wonder if they are more of a reflection of pre-selection. In other words, there is going to be a huge bias towards the highly selective private schools having the kids that are going to do really well on the MCAT’s and have the other stats it takes to get into med school, because they were filtered out from the less capable students at the start. So of course the ones that make it through the pre-med grind will have an excellent chance of getting in. But I would argue that is based more on who they were already, not the school they went to, and so a student that was deemed capable of attending such a school but chose to attend a state school is still of that caliber. Having said that, I will contradict myself some and admit that being in a school that has so many really sharp, competitive students makes the people that get through that school’s program that much sharper also. However, any individual case is just that, individual. There is no reason a student that works hard at a state school, gets great grades, and scores well on the MCATs won’t have as good a chance of being accepted to a good med school as someone from an Ivy or similar school with the same stats. At least that is what I have been told by med school faculty members.</p>
<p>macunix - Not sure if you were referring to my post, but in no way does that post or do I personally “look down on state universities”. Older D graduated from the honors program of our StateU - it was a perfect fit for her and she graduated with a ton of honors. Her success at StateU led to her acceptance at the #3 grad school for her major with a large stipend and, tuition, health insurance, and travel paid. I posted the quotes because coloDad said his daughter was interested in a “top medical school”. I was actually really shocked to see those percentages - assumed admission would probably be around 50/50. The statistics at State medical schools would be MUCH different.</p>
<p>Also not sure what you are implying about debt. In our case, we assumed when we had a child back in 1988, she would attend college and started saving accordingly. She and we won’t take on any debt for undergrad or medical school (if she is fortunate enough to earn an acceptance someplace). We drive older model cars, we’ve lived in the same home for 24 years and it is paid for, we don’t shop at high dollar stores or take expensive vacations. Years of being frugal and a lot planning made it possible.</p>
<p>Over and over again I try to make the point of looking at the undergraduate experience as an entity by itself. What is the undergraduate experience the student is looking for? Older D looked at WashU (and other schools) and decided she wanted what StateU offered. Part of that decision also might of been that she wasn’t keen about going too far from home and chose the school 75 miles away. Younger D had a totally different experience in mind and wanted what WashU was offering. Luckily, we were able to fund either choice. If you cannot, that is a whole different story. </p>
<p>I always hope parents discuss the financial side with their child BEFORE they even apply to a school the parents might not be able to afford. Scholarships and even financial aid is not a given anywhere and so many on these boards are totally shocked when they don’t receive a top scholarship or their financial aid is not what they expected. So much easier to have the conversation ahead of time.</p>
<p>MWP- no I was not refering to your post but it was a general comment about a parents dilemma. I thoroughly agree that discussion with child is required before the application process especially now given the state of the economy. I am sorry if that hurt you - it was NOTHING personal. You have given the best to your children!!</p>
<p>Macunix - Not hurt at all. Just don’t want to be misunderstood!</p>
<p>I absolutely agree with MWP about the importance of having THE college discussion between parents and kids. Unfortunately the ideal time to have it is probably too late for many on these boards. That time is the summer before freshman year of HS. This is the time to lay out everyones expectations and goals. By then parents should have a pretty good idea of what they may or may not be able to afford. Given that info, a set of parameters should be established. For example; we can afford the State U or the following catagory of schools. If you think that you might want something different, you (the student) have to accomplish the following (could be scholarships, work etc.). In order to do that you might consider working on the following (GPA, SAT prep, starting noteworthy ECs, employment, etc.) This way everyone knows future limits and expectations before the fact. It also eliminates kids applying to schools that are not realistic, thus reducing potential dissapointment later on. </p>
<p>Although I said that the ideal time for this discussion is before HS begins, it can be had at any time. Obviously the sooner the better. The discussion will end up taking place no matter what, it is just unfortunate if it takes place after acceptance at a school which may not be possible due to financial reasons.</p>
<p>Maybe I am old fashion and I am weird but lately the country is turning this way too. Mainly, loan and credit are no longer the smart thing like they used to be. </p>
<p>That is why we chose not to let our daughter go to Vanderbilt or Emory. We both work, therefore we are not getting aid. And, please don’t tell me loans are aids. They are not. </p>
<p>Yes, Washu is better. Yes, Vanderbilt is better. If you think they are better, they are better in your opinion. If I don’t know your education result, I only notice your son’s car window sticker showing the school name on an old Honda Accord. The school is probably what you are still paying for student loan for. </p>
<p>So your dream school is better but your dream school is not 120K better than some private schools giving awards or 200K better than state schools that give free ride. If you can pay for Washu without loans, and you don’t feel the pain writing the check, go for it. It may be the right thing to do if you have the money. Otherwise, don’t just say they are better. Don’t borrow so much just to get a BS degree there. </p>
<p>I also have another concern: These top notch schools are also more competitive within their own students. Your kid has to be superior in high school but will he be in WashU or Vandy ? If not, it is very likely that your youngster fall below GPA 3.5, or even just 3.0 or less. Then, your kid’s grades are no longer med school material. Of course we all want to think our kids are great, but in reality they are not. In that regard, will WashU best suit your kid? That is a question. A friend’s daughter received service related merit award from Washu is having a tough time keeping up. She fell in the bottom % of the students there. </p>
<p>My neighbor’s son was #1 at high school but he insisted to go to MIT. MIT gave him nothing but he went anyway. Dad and Mom cough out the life savings so he does not have the debt. And he will be a computer engineer after five years. When will he accumulate $200K cash back on hand through his work life? Many excellent computer engineers are from state schools debt free. I am one. </p>
<p>In summary I have great respect for these top schools but I just want to mix the financial considerations into the discussion.</p>
<p>Tony - Of course you have a valid point. I think if you read through most of the threads, you will find a lot of us that advocate a balancing of the financial aspects against the quality of the institution and the experience the student will have. It is a value proposition. Is School X worth $200K more than Big State U (BSU)? Probably not, unless as you say the family is wealthy and so that is not a lot of money to them. Is it worth $50K more? $25K? It all depends on that family’s financials and personal values regarding debt and personal assessment of the education their child will receive at School X vs. BSU. I think that for very few people coming out of undergrad with $200K of debt is a good value proposition, it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control.</p>
<p>I will quibble with one of your statements:</p>
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<p>I understand what you are trying to say, but of course in reality some are (mine for example). LOL, couldn’t resist. Seriously, it does take a very objective person to assess their child realistically, and even then it is hard because it is difficult to have a good grasp on how talented these other kids may or may not be relative to yours. Kind of like the athlete that is a big basketball star in high school because he/she can shoot well, but then finds out they are quite mediocre at the college level because all the kids guarding them are twice as quick and 5 inches taller that what they faced in high school. Or maybe it turns out he/she is quick enough to play at that level and shines anyway. In sports this is easier to find out earlier. In academics it is usually a little harder to gauge.</p>
<p>Here’s a little info about me. My dad makes quite a bit of money; however, my mom is a homemaker, my parents are paying for my sisters medical school, layoffs are starting to get scary, and 90% of my dad’s retirement investments are dead due to the economy. On paper it looks like we are well off, but that’s not the case. </p>
<p>My decision was between WashU and UW-Madison, which are both very good schools. WashU is going to cost me 44k the first year and UW-Madison would be 23k. The reason I am going to choose WashU is because this year I believe I’ll be able to get internships and possibly be able to receive more financial aid next year (I applied kind of late).</p>
<p>WashU is great and if you didn’t receive any aid this year, then you might consider sucking it up for a year and trying your luck with financial aid and scholarships next year.</p>
<p>SChoubey, I’m in a similar situation than you are except my mom also works (significantly less salary than my dad). </p>
<p>I got in through waitlist at WashU yesterday, so I am waiting for my financial aid package. But to address your question, it really depends on your family’s situation. For me, I chose a private university because my parents can pay for it ideally without having to take out too much of a loan. They would only have to take out a loan for me if my dad earns less commission from his job than usual. So my point is, everyone’s situation is different. Can your parents afford it at all? Or would you have to take on the 100k debt burden by yourself? If it’s the latter, I think you should go with the in-state university full ride (especially since you want to do pre-med). Pre-med; you will have many years to go before actually receiving your PhD. But the other thing to consider is the quality of WashU’s Pre-med program. It’s excellent, and cannot be compared to your in-state school’s pre-med program… For me, I’m majoring in Business (pretty set on it), so I have to worry less about grad school costs. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>