Touche! 
I’m late to this discussion, but for me the fact that W & L is named after not just an inveterate racist but a traitor to the US who led a violent secessionist effort rooted in the cause of slavery is, well, something of an issue. The college and its board reviewed that fact and decided they were all in on it. That tells me all I need to know about the institution–about the people who run it, drive its mission, and decide what it wants to stand for in today’s world. Their answer: Robert E. Lee.
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I’m glad you see my point on that. But I’m disappointed you keep equivocating, as in the second sentence.
Whether “name” or “institution”, the point is the same. If the institution was named Leopold & Himmler, you and I both know there is no way you would never allow your daughter to consider it. That would be a non-negotiable topic for you. Yet, you keep saying W&L is fine for African-Americans to attend. Talk about a blind spot.
This is not a criticism of you at all, tsbna. It’s merely me trying to understand if you really truly understand how important the name of the institution is (as well as the honoring of Lee on campus) to some minority families.
As long as Lee’s name is an official part of the university’s name, no amount of scholarships or half-stepping initiatives is going to be good enough for the majority of African-American families that I know. And I know a lot in tri-state area. W&L is a non-starter for almost 100% of them, just as Leopold & Himmler would be for you.
For a great percentage of African Americans, until the school removes any affiliation with the champion of the Confederate cause, any other effort will be seen as insufficient.
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I did not say W&L is fine for AA to attend. I said each family needs to decide. It’s not for me to tell potential applicants what to do.
I said I would be comfortable sending my child. We had concerns with being Jewish and after investigating more we were comfortable.
I am not African American. When I say blind spots, I know I cannot think like an African American. I am not one. I work for an AA female and I see her passion. She is the leader of the AA group at our organization. . She has two youngsters and I wonder if she knows the school.
I see your point on Himmler. I get it.
I’m not trying to excuse anything. I am being honest for sake of discussion. I’m a white male. I do not approve of discrimination of any sort. Never have and hopefully never will. I am taking part in an important discussion here and I am learning. Learned just on this chat.
I don’t want to come off as excusing behavior.
I’m simply saying to those who see a school that will be a fit for them I understand. And for those that don’t wish to be a part, I understand.
Our nation’s history has many stains - and people need to navigate areas of discomfort Best they can.
I’m certainly not looking to get into a vitriolic discussion here.
I think there are learnings to be had every day on issues such as this and so many perspectives that we are blind to.
Thanks
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Not directed towards @tsbna44 personally but more of a general observation.
When any of us are more concerned with being ‘portrayed/seen’ as a bigot more than they are concerned with clearly bigoted actions (a school continuing to call itself after a traitorous racist and associate with that legacy) and the effects those bigoted actions have on others - I believe we’ve lost the thread, individually and collectively.
I also keep thinking of John Scalzi’s post about The Cinemax Theory of Racism
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I’m not picking on anyone, this is a blanket message: dial it back. Now.
Per CC rules this is not a debate society. The thread started out as one prospective parent’s PoV following a revisit, and then went downhill from there.
If you/your child wants to attend W&L, fine. If they don’t, fine. But don’t keep saying the same thing over and over defending your view or challenging others. Make your point, defend once if necessary, and then move on.
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“It says enough about W&L’s current faculty to call to mind once again that about 80% of them voted to strip Robert E. Lee’s name from that of the university, and there can be little doubt that W&L’s Board of Trustees renamed Lee Chapel to appease faculty anger at not changing the university’s name.”
This is a quote from the link you posted arguing that the faculty & administration isn’t doing enough to move forward. 80% of the faculty. Last time I checked, 20% of anything is hardly powerful and 20% usually gets its tail kicked in any head-to-head competition, debate or vote.
Look, I have no axe in this - the school approached us precisely because we belong to an affinity group and asked DC to apply for a scholarship. The school is throwing buckets of aid at POC/affinity groups. And no one here is necessarily, to paraphrase you, ignoring or misrepresenting the current situation. I asked an on-campus, non-Christian religious figure, point-blank, “Compare the school to Liberty University.” Everyone here pretty much has their eyes wide open. I’m not sure how powerful the class of '64 author of that link is (the guy is like over 80) but yes, he is against the progress of the university. Those pockets of dissent remain…but no one is saying that they don’t.
Now we can get into all the sophism you want - but the name of this thread is Expectations vs Reality. The school’s efforts are better today than they were yesterday, and better than I expected. That point cannot be debated in good faith. You may be right - “better” may also mean “not nearly enough,” - but that’s another argument, and probably should be another thread.
Happy Holidays to all.
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I’m setting this negativity aside and sharing a positive story… but one that reflects our experience with W & L and made me happy to see today.
A nervous mom of a newly accepted student posted on the parent FB page. They are Indian and she was extremely nervous about sending her child across the world to a very small rural US college. In less than 24 hours, there were 60+ posts providing reassurance, understanding, offers of support, offers from local families to help if needed, offers to include the student in parent weekend activities if the family could not attend… We have personally benefited from the generosity of the W & L family multiple times the same way, even though we are only 7+ hours away. It is a lovely and inclusive community and we are grateful for them.
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No one is right or wrong about this. It is up to each family. If you and your child are happy with W&L and find it an acceptable institution, and if the university is offering enough FinAid to sway the decision for you, I think W&L should definitely be on your list.
The only “right” and “wrong” here is what is right/wrong for you and your child. Best of luck to you and your student!
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Don’t mean to go down a slippery slope but did those 80% question the name at time of hire ? I don’t know the answer but it made me think reading the message ?
How about diverse faculty being hired on ? Would be interesting to know their thought process in joining.
I suppose one can argue that for those passionately against, they could have sent a stronger message by seeking employment elsewhere.
We spoke to a white politics professor about the name - we stumbled upon us looking lost outside a building that was being refurbished. We talked about it - but it was two years ago - I forget the resulting conclusion.
Back to the original post - different schools definitely have pre conceived notions about them - whether political leaning or party environment or racial make up or more. And I imagine this thread about W&L will repeat itself for many years to come as new students learn about the namesake.
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I always appreciate your measured responses… but want to add that I personally know African American kids from my D’s HS who attend W&L at full pay or near full pay. It is an individual decision, but these kids were not swayed by aid. Anecdotal, I know. I realize that finances play a part for many students, regardless of their backgrounds, but not all.
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I mentioned finances because in the post I responded to, the OP mentioned that the “scholarship” was a factor of the family’s consideration.
Whatever the family decides, be it for financial reasons or otherwise, I’m sure it will be carefully considered and hopefully the best decision for the student.
But full-pay or full-ride, I hope every student that attends W&L experiences nothing but joy on campus.
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Perhaps a more practical matter for students who do choose to matriculate to WLU: how does the very high participation in fraternities and sororities* affect the social life? I.e. does it limit social interaction to within your chapter, or generally for those who choose not to join? Since concerns about race and ethnicity fill this thread, how racially integrated or segregated are the fraternities and sororities at WLU?
*WLU’s 2021-2022 CDS says 75% of men and 71% of women among all undergraduates, but 0% among frosh (presumably means a delayed joining rule), but that means that nearly all non-frosh have joined them.
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Edit: This was in response to the elephant in the room comment but lost the reply link…
Maybe! Despite Econpops kind message encouraging continuing the conversation and Mtmind acknowledging the improvements aimed at diversity on campus… if the name is a no-go, and it seems it is despite not explicitly calling it “overshadowing” everything else, what would you like to discuss?
If every time current families (current families supportive of change!) share current experiences, someone hits back with anecdotes from 10 years ago, what would you like to discuss? The thread is about current realities, which we are doing our best to share based on our kids’ experiences.
We have no power over the name at this time and if that negates any of the positive measures, as it seems, what is to discuss?
And now posters are bringing up hate groups and associating them with the university… which is not at all reflective of the current campus or student body. My personal feeling is that was unnecessarily inflammatory and intentionally discouraging constructive conversation. That goes beyond “conversations of race being uncomfortable”.
Nevertheless I appreciate the perspectives shared in this thread…
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Frat parties are open to everyone, male or female, Greek or not… with the exception of a few formal events but those open to everyone after 9-10pm. There are historically black frats/srots, but many students of color join IFC and NPC groups… some are more diverse than others.
The only students I have heard that are turned away from Greek parties… VMI students! Apparently that is a no-no.
There is winter rush to give kids time to get to know each other fall semester.
For sororities, rush starts with the girls all wearing the same tee shirt. Dress are worn for the next rounds but no one is expected to buy new wardrobes like at some schools. Any girls who participate all through rush will be accepted to a house, although it may not be their first choice…no one is left out, unless it’s by choice.
I only can share my kid’s experience. She is in a sorority but has friends who chose not to join Greek life. Her social life is split between Greek and non-Greek events… there is plenty to do and since parties are open to all, opting out of Greek life is not as big a deal as it looks on paper.
Edit: Since there is a lot of university oversight, the university shuttle goes by all the frat houses and the senior housing to get kids home at night. There is also a university “uber” car that all students are allowed to use once per week at no charge. (Note: If that sounds odd, Lexington is small and has no Uber/Lyft options… so the university created its own as a safety measure in addition to the shuttle.)
I don’t have the energy to keep up with this thread!
Re: greek life:
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everone who wants to participate can, it is not exclusionary as at some schools
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joining a fraternity does not turn otherwise thoughtful and sensitive boys into animal house wannabes
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my son believes, at least in his case, fraternities facilitate the mixing of different student groups on campus. He’s a member of an athletic team, and knows that group well; his fraternity means he knows non-athletes, boys on other teams, boys with other interests etc better
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the University exercises strong oversight of Greek Life. They require an adult live in the houses. They don’t tolerate hazing. I believe this is better than kicking them off campus and turning a blind eye.
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A few thoughts:
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You might want to acknowledge that “10 years ago” is not that long a period of time.
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And, that the Board of Trustees of a college is not exactly a third-party player. My suspicion is that the decision to retain the late Confederate General and former president of the college as part of the school’s name was a political decision in the sense that boards of trustees are constantly weighing the interests of different stakeholders and it’s their job to make compromises.
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What’s left to discuss is what I brought up in post#48:
Does the W&L body politic have the stomach for all that? Without going into specific examples, these are consequences that many, many northern colleges over the space of the last half-century thought worth risking and living with.
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I appreciate reading your insights so thank you for taking the time to respond. I have a high school junior who is strongly considering applying after a campus visit last week. It sounds like the Greek culture has improved since my time there, and even back then, it was vastly different than the fraternity and sorority culture at my in state public flagship in ways similar to how you describe, also in a positive way. I have a more nuanced view of the name change dispute of 2020 because I know some of the people involved in the activist group that is/was in favor of the name change. I also supported a name change at the time and would today if it came up again, but I know that all of those alumni were not well-intentioned, either. It’s not all that meets the eye, as one of reason might imagine.
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I don’t know why the decision to keep the name was made but I assume the strength of the brand has something to do with the decision. I know the argument here is the name doesn’t have brand strength but I’m not so sure.
To change a name and retain the recognition is tough.
As an off the wall parallel, can anyone name off the top of their head, the replacement name for Aunt Jemima’s. Quaker made the decision to change it. Has it paid off financially or in other ways ? I don’t know the answer.
Or Mars changing from Uncle Ben’s. Anyone know the new names?
I do but I had to look them up.
There’s already a Washington College and Washington University.
I don’t know what a new name could be - but perhaps that was a large part of the board’s decision.
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Reminder that CC is not a debate society. State your position once and then please move on or take it to PM.