WashU, Northwestern, Cornell?!!!

College Search & Selection
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<p>I believe that Sam Lee is correct about WUSTL's FA policies. </p>

<p>Yes, that's exactly what the ED contract says, you have commited to attend. Before you take elsijfdl and gomestar's advice, make sure to read the ED contract that you are signing. It's not as easy as they make it seem, unless your alternative is an instate school with a much lower COA.</p>

<p>Even for schools that provide 100% of need, you must remember two things: 1) It is the school that determines your demonstrated need, not you; and EFC calculators only give a rough estimate. For instance, this year our FA packages ranged from 0 to 20k/year of need depending on the school; and 2) A school may satisfy your financial need with all loans, all grants or anything in between. While you can ask them for a reassessment, you are really in no position to bargain if you have applied ED. If you go RD and have better FA packages from competitive schools, you do have an incentive for them to match other schools.</p>

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<p>It's as cut and dry at Cornell as it gets. if you apply ED and can't afford, then you dont have to come - the school can't force you to attend.</p>

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<p>That's the same at EVERY school. NO school can make an applicant take on debt. That's ridiculous. I'm so tired of people thinking that ED is more than just a way for schools to protect their yields- like it's a real 'binding contract'. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>Remember.... "It is the school that determines your demonstrated need" ......</p>

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<p>But what you and gomestar are forgetting is the HS college counselor ALSO is required to sign the contract, and will do so only if he/she knows that the student fully understands that in both the HS and the colleges view, it IS a binding contract. If a student then backs out, then both the HS and the counselor also look bad. Any counselor worth his salt will not jeopardise future applicants to the same college, if there is any question of a student trying to wiggle out of a contract that he has knowingly signed.</p>

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<p>"then both the HS and the counselor also look bad."</p>

<p>-This is quite true; I've said this many times. However, individual students should not be tricked into believing that they HAVE to attend a college simply because the college says so. That's just absurd. </p>

<p>"Any counselor worth his salt will not jeopardise future applicants to the same college, if there is any question of a student trying to wiggle out of a contract that he has knowingly signed."</p>

<p>-Frankly, what you say here doesn't make much sense to me. If a counselor signs a ED agreement in say October, and come December an applicant doesn't want to attend a school, what exactly can the counselor do besides complain? It's not like he/she will be asked to sign any more ED agreements for the same student, and the counselor surely can't 'force' the student to attend the given school. I think that using the words "wiggle out" is much too harsh, and is giving the ED system way more credit than it deserves. </p>

<p>I think it grossly inaccurate to believe that ALL students applying ED are 100% sure that they want to attend the schools to which they applied. Sure, in a perfect system students would apply ED and would always be happy with their decision, but, that's just not how the real world works.</p>

<p>I don't understand why people view ED as such a noble system, when in actuality it is little more than a way for colleges to protect their yields. It's particularly hilarious to me that certain schools also defer ED applicants to regular decision. That is, a school can not give an applicant a definitive 'yes' or 'no' in the first round of ED consideration, but can defer him until it handles regular applications- yet, if a student is accepted to said school he 'has' to attend? Give me a break.</p>

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<p>kk,
Interesting arguments, but they are inaccurate, incomplete and don't make much sense. First of all, show me where anyone said that ED was a noble system. Where did anyone say that 100% of kids applying ED are sure of their choice? Actually, many people cite the change in choice of college as a reason not to apply ED. </p>

<p>Nothing noble about it, either from the school or the applicant POV. Each has their own reason for doing it: the college to increase their yield and control of enrollment management; the student to get an answer early in the season and to have a better chance of acceptance (not saying this last part is true, but it is the main reason people apply ED).</p>

<p>The school states it's policy, if you don't want to play the game, fine apply RD. If you do want to play the ED game and gamble with FA, that's between you and your parents. My intent is to give the full picture to the OP, not to convince them one way or the other.</p>

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<p>"Interesting arguments, but they are inaccurate, incomplete and don't make much sense."</p>

<p>-I fail to see which part of what I said doesn't make much sense. In fact, the only NEW thing you added to this conversation is the potential for students to have a 'better chance of acceptance'. </p>

<p>"Where did anyone say that 100% of kids applying ED are sure of their choice? Actually, many people cite the change in choice of college as a reason not to apply ED."</p>

<p>-People insinuate this all the time. That is, people make it seem that students should ONLY apply ED to any school if they are definitely going to attend that school. That's ridiculous. Change of school choice is ONLY a reason not to apply ED to a school if you believe that the ED system is binding in some way- and, yet again, it is not. </p>

<p>"My intent is to give the full picture to the OP, not to convince them one way or the other."</p>

<p>-As is mine. I, however, am not going to sit idle and let people spread inaccuracies about the ED system. The fact of the matter is no student HAS to attend a school if he is accepted ED, plain and simple; and especially not simply because the school says so. Does an applicant lose a chance of attending a certain school if he applies ED and decides not to go- sure. But he never really loses his <em>choice</em> in the matter.</p>

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<p>A question regarding ED: does that work for law school admissions as well? For instance, what if one would attend a specific law school if admitted and intended to apply ED, but only if the financial aid package was not abhorrent and made up primarily of loans?</p>

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<p>kk,
It is not plain and simple, sorry. If a student decided not attend his ED choice for other than financial aid reasons, he will also be jeopardising his applications to other colleges as well . ED Colleges will, and do, notify other colleges about applicants who renege on their ED contracts. So a student who thumbs his nose at the college he applied ED to could be left with NO college choices. However, if a student decides between the time he applies ED and the notification date that he no longer wants to be obligated to attend, then he can jsut withdraw his ED application.</p>

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<p>"ED Colleges will, and do, notify other colleges about applicants who renege on their ED contracts."</p>

<p>"So a student who thumbs his nose at the college he applied ED to could be left with NO college choices."</p>

<p>-NO college choices? What? This is just FALSE. Unless ALL schools share information, what you just said is completely untrue. If a student applies ED to one school and doesn't attend, I find it HIGHLY improbable that he will be locked out of ALL schools for this reason. It may be true that other ED institutions may not want the student, but ALL schools? This is a huge stretch.</p>

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<p>It happens. Colleges will not let students just slide out of their ED contracts for other than financial aid reasons. Why do you think they have students sign a contract in the first place? They will notify the HS college counselor when there has been a breach of contract, and will notify other colleges. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't mean it's not true, sorry..</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that schools often will fill your DEMONSTRATED NEED only. If you apply ED and you later disagree on your level of demonstrated need, then you've got a problem. Apply ED if you like, but you may not get the package you expect and yet you will still be in a binding contract if you are accepted ED. I think entomom's advice above is accurate and worth following.</p>

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<p>I'm going to paste this recent post written by Carolyn, one of the most experienced and knowledgable veterans on CC
"there's a common misconception that you are automatically freed from your ED commitment if you "don't like" the FA offer. Not true. If the school has met your demonstrated financial need - even if they've offered you more loans than you'd like to do so - you're still bound by the commitment. It's only if the school doesn't offer a FA package that fills your demonstrated need (as determined by the school, not your family's willingness to pay) that you are out of the ED commitment."</p>

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<p>"Why do you think they have students sign a contract in the first place?" </p>

<p>-Firstly, most students applying to college aren't legal adults and can't even sign 'contracts'... so I don't know what you're talking about. ED agreements are ONLY honor-based agreements, and nothing more. A college may reject a student for just about whatever reason it wants, but when you start to MAKE UP things like saying students will have NO school to attend, I have a problem with that.</p>

<p>"They will notify the HS college counselor when there has been a breach of contract," </p>

<p>-Great, so they tell the counselor- so what? Are you insinuating that a guidance counselor can 'force' a student to go to a certain school?</p>

<p>"and will notify other colleges."</p>

<p>-They can, and most likely will only tell other ED schools if they FIRST tell the student that they do this. As for a BLANKET list of students who don't attend their ED schools- one that would lock students out of EVERY other school- that just seems absurd. </p>

<p>The NACAC (the organization that governs ED) says that:</p>

<p>"should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission…."</p>

<p>Even if you look at ED as a 'binding contract' (which it is not), the very organization that governs it says that a student can decline an offer of admission if a financial aid offer does not make "attendance possible", and surely such a decision is left up to the student (otherwise there would be no such statement), so pretty much ALL people who apply ED can simply say they want more money and not attend the school.</p>

<p>"there's a common misconception that you are automatically freed from your ED commitment if you "don't like" the FA offer. Not true. If the school has met your demonstrated financial need - even if they've offered you more loans than you'd like to do so - you're still bound by the commitment"</p>

<p>-That seems to be the EXACT opposite of what the organization says. A school can come up with whatever crazy numbers it wants and say that it's a student's "demonstrated need", and it still doesn't mean that the student HAS to attend the school, and most definitely doesn't mean that the school can 'force' the student to get into debt.</p>

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<p>kk, you obviously don't want to believe information that you don't agree with. that doesn't make the information false. what you choose to believe is up to you. but shooting the messenger doesn't change the reality the colleges consider ED a binding contract. anyone choosing applying ED needs to know what the colleges expect should they be offered admission. if they don't want to commit to attend a college, should they be accepted, they shouldn't apply ED in the first place.</p>

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<p>"They will notify the HS college counselor when there has been a breach of contract, and will notify other colleges"</p>

<p>they wont notify other colleges. I'd be lying if I said admissions at the Ivys and their peers dont communicate to each other ... but I know it's not to inform each other that somebody broke an ED "contract". </p>

<p>"I'm going to paste this recent post written by Carolyn, one of the most experienced and knowledgable veterans on CC"
and I work in admissions at Cornell. If you can't or don't want to pay, you wont be forced to. I does happen, trust me. Cornell doesn't call the other ivy's going "this student here is a little cheat, don't let them in".</p>

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<p>"the colleges consider ED a binding contract."</p>

<p>-Look, colleges can consider ED whatever they want, but IT DOESN'T MAKE IT SO. It's like amusement parks that put up signs saying you can't sue if you get hurt on their rides, or surgeons who make patients sign things saying they can't sue if they are hurt during the surgery. Does that mean that if a roller coaster chops off my feet, or if my surgeon leaves scissors inside me I just have to accept it? Of course not. Things aren't legal- or even binding for that matter- just because the people who created them say so, and ED agreements are no different. </p>

<p>A 'binding contract' is one that is legally enforceable, and carries some kind of civil or criminal ramifications, are you trying to say that ED agreements carry these things? Are you saying that a college would actually try to sue a student who didn't uphold an ED agreement? </p>

<p>"if they don't want to commit to attend a college, should they be accepted, they shouldn't apply ED in the first place."</p>

<p>-This talk of 'should' always comes up when people talk about ED. 'Should' students go to an ED school if they are accepted- sure, if they get (what they decide to be) adequate financial aid- but do they HAVE to go? No, no they do not. What people SHOULD do and what they HAVE to do are two (largely) different things. </p>

<p>"that doesn't make the information false."</p>

<p>-Then prove it to be true. Prove that ED agreements are more than just honor -bound agreements. Prove that a college can 'force' a student to attend. Prove that students have to attend ED schools simply because the schools say so. And prove that any amount of financial aid can not be seen to the student as not making "attendance possible". Unless you can do these things, none of what you said is "true".</p>

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<p>wow.. i love how this turned into an AP ENGLISH/APUSH-like debate. i'm just the bystander now.. sucking in all the info. ahah..</p>

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<p>I foresee some crazy arguments these next 4 years....</p>

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<p>lol.. yea tell me about it..</p>