"We joke about our rivalry..."*

Colleges and Universities A-Z Yale University
1

<p>When I arrived as a student at Yale, my elders solemnly informed me that one should speak only of “that school in Cambridge” and not invoke the dread name of Harvard.</p>

<p>For those who didn’t get the memo: It was a joke.</p>

<p>True, there’s an old and venerable football rivalry between the two schools, as detailed in this “Stroll Through the Ages: A look at the history of The Game” from 2001:
<a href="http://www.harvardindependent.com/news/2001/11/15/Sports/A.Stroll.Through.The.Ages-146369.shtml%5B/url%5D:%5Bquote%5DAsk"&gt;http://www.harvardindependent.com/news/2001/11/15/Sports/A.Stroll.Through.The.Ages-146369.shtml:
[quote]
Ask</a> anyone which college sports rivalry is the most venerated and steeped in tradition and you'll hear, "Harvard-Yale." Ask anyone which one annual Ivy League football contest is guaranteed to command national media attention and you'll hear, "Harvard-Yale." And ask what two schools' student bodies (and alumni) have loathed each other most fervently and most interminably. Inevitably the answer will ring, "Harvard and Yale."</p>

<p>So why, you wonder, do these schools hate each other with such a passion? I will not attempt to answer that question, for its roots are too deep and philosophical to touch in one mere essay. I can, however, attest to the Harvard student's innate and profound knowledge: "Yale sucks, therefore I am."

[/quote]
As far as I can tell, the mutual cries of Yale/Harvard sucks go back to 1974: <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=118346%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=118346&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>But do they betoken deep hostility or fears of inferiority on either side? For that matter, do most students at either school take the whole thing very seriously? Not in my experience, and not according to a student who transferred from Duke to Harvard and compared the famous Harvard-Yale rivalry to the one between Duke and UNC (<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=160711%5B/url%5D):%5Bquote%5DAn"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=160711):
[quote]
An</a> early indication to me that there is no real rivalry between the two schools was that Harvard students and Yale students seem to actually be friends. Duke students hate UNC students, and more importantly, look down on them. It is hard for Harvard students to be quite as snobby in regard to Yale, although we try to. Our safety school cheer rings pretty hollow given the large number of kids who choose Yale over Harvard or come to Harvard because they didn’t get into Yale.

[/quote]
Before Byerly chimes in with his cherished--if slightly woolly and out-of-date--cries about cross-admits <a href="%C2%93The%20overwhelming%20majority%20of%20common%20admits%20to%20Harvard%20and%20Yale%20choose%20Harvard%20for%20undergraduate%20education%20-%20and%20always%20have%C2%94">i</a>,* let me stipulate for the sake of argument that he is absolutely correct. My point is that Yale students aren’t defensive and worried about it the way that he imagines. They think the rivalry is pretty funny.</p>

<p>Take, for example, the Yale-bashing that the Harvard-educated writers artfully weave into episodes of “The Simpsons” (<a href="http://www.harvardmagazine.com/issues/so97/alumni.simpsons.html%5B/url%5D)%5Bquote%5DReading"&gt;http://www.harvardmagazine.com/issues/so97/alumni.simpsons.html)
[quote]
Reading</a> Homer:</p>

<p>Writer Richard Appel (who carries on The Simpsons' Harvard tradition this season, along with Cohen, Greaney, and Meyer) credits the "almost silly and embarrassing" quality of the ancient Harvard-Yale rivalry itself for providing such a rich source of comedy. A former attorney, he expertly defends the show's Yale-bashing practices as "shorthand for making fun of an Ivy-League pompous type." Which is not to say he feels remorseful: "Personally, I never experienced a moral quandary about making fun of Yale...Even to say 'poking fun at Yale' and 'moral quandary' in the same sentence would be a stretch." Oakley also shrugs off any question of foul play: "We do it because it's fun."

[/quote]
And are Yalies offended? No--they consider the Harvard alums behind the show to be “some of Hollywood’s funniest writers” ( <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=101%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=101&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;/p>

<p>Sometimes this supposedly cutthroat rivalry is even harnessed in the service of a social good like a blood or recycling drive:
“Students to bleed for victory”(<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505488%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505488&lt;/a&gt;) or “In recycling, Harvard kicks our dumpsters” (<a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=27474%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=27474&lt;/a&gt;). </p>

<p>But as Harvard President Larry Summers pointed out in his remarks at the Yale Tercentennial in 2001 (<a href="http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/2001/yale.html%5B/url%5D):%5Bquote%5D%5Bhighlight%5D%5Bb%5D*We"&gt;http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/2001/yale.html):
[quote]


***We</a> joke about our rivalry, without ever fully concealing our robust mutual admiration. In a real and deep sense, we are colleagues spurring each other forward and promoting values that we both share.

**

[/quote]
It’s all good. ;)</p>

<p>P.S. Not surprisingly, our counterparts at Oxford and Cambridge universities are engaged in nearly identical debates on the other side of the ocean. For example, there’s a site called Oxbridgeinfo (“If you are thinking about applying to Oxford or Cambridge then this is the site for you!”), with a discussion of "How did you decide between Oxford and Cambridge?” at <a href="http://oa.waveflex.com/profiles/q_disp.asp?q=HowDecide%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://oa.waveflex.com/profiles/q_disp.asp?q=HowDecide&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

<p>And I found this piece by an Oxford student writing for a Cambridge audience ( <a href="http://www.varsity.co.uk/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8033&Itemid=55%5B/url%5D):%5Bquote%5DBeneath"&gt;http://www.varsity.co.uk/mambo/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8033&Itemid=55):
[quote]
Beneath</a> all this posturing, most students can remember the time when they chose between Oxford and Cambridge. If they are honest, they'll remember that, unless they were studious enough to know what their course contained, there was not much between them. I for one (don't tell my tutors) plumped for Oxford because of that exotic and slightly louche 'x' lurking in the name. Frankly, if there were a university in Ashby-de-la-Zouche, I'd probably be there. A sense of university pride is merely something freshers pick up in their first term because they remember seeing the boat race once, and like the idea of belonging.

[/quote]
</p>

2

<p>LOL, ivyqueen. Maybe Byerly can finally get the message to lighten up.</p>

3

<p>Why can't we Ivies all just get along?</p>

4

<p>Actually, we get along fine. For most of us, anyway, we're just playing at a Big Rivalry because it's fun.</p>

5

<p>I know, but some take the rivalry seriously.</p>

6

<p>When I find out that someone went to Harvard, or goes to Harvard, or once liked Harvard, or visited a friend at Harvard, I can't speak to that person anymore because I know that their intellectual capacity has been compromised.</p>

7

<p>.... just kidding ....</p>

8

<p>lol, I'll be happy with any of those schools</p>

9

<p>Two recent articles about that fearsome rivalry, where Yale is supposedly desperate to score points against Harvard:</p>

<ol>
<li> It's interesting to note that Yale president Levin hasn't rushed to join with other university presidents in kicking Harvard president Summers when he's down: <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28462%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28462&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/li>
</ol>

<p>and</p>

<ol>
<li> Oh, the ugliness of a competitive blood drive: <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28439%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28439&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/li>
</ol>

10

<p>maybe this will be important to me if i ever get into either one.</p>

11

<p>It hard to view it as a real "rivalry" when the disparity is so great.</p>

<p><a href="http://artpad.art.com/gallery/?ica9cn18gdqg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://artpad.art.com/gallery/?ica9cn18gdqg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

12

<p>
[quote]
1. It's interesting to note that Yale president Levin hasn't rushed to join with other university presidents in kicking Harvard president Summers when he's down: <a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28462%5B/url%5D.%5B/quote%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28462.

[/quote]
</a></p>

<p>it coooooouuuuuuuuldddddd just be because he's a man.</p>

13

<p>Neither Amy Guttman of Penn nor Ruth Simmons of Brown felt compelled to sign on to the gratuitous and disgraceful, Tilghman-led broadside ... based on incomplete press reports. </p>

<p>One can only hope President Tilghman need Harvard's cooperation, some day, on an issue of importance.</p>

14

<p>The Presidents of Stanford, MIT and Princeton banded together because of their greater knowledge of the subject matter. Each a highly respected scientist. They should be commended for standing on principle and displaying what some of us on this Board lack: honor and virtue.</p>

15

<p>Nice correction. I think you were closer to the mark when you said they stood on "principal" !</p>

<p>According to today's Yale Daily News, they were simply acting like small-scale competitors trying to take advantage of the situation for their own advantage:</p>

<p>"The (Summers) controversy provides Harvard's peer institutions with a chance to showcase their own efforts to increase female representation in the faculty, said Jeff Siegel, a New York public relations consultant. But he said that Yale and other universities could gain unsavory reputations if they are perceived as taking advantage of Harvard's problems.</p>

<p>Yale President Richard Levin has declined to speak specifically on Summers' comments, but has said the University remains committed to expanding the role of women in the sciences.</p>

<p>Siegel said Levin's strategy is a good public relations move for the University.</p>

<p>"I think Levin is being prudent, although I'm sure you could find people with different opinions," Siegel said. "Overreaching is probably arguably the only thing that could really get someone into very hot water."</p>

<p>By remaining silent, Yale can take advantage of the media's focus on Harvard, said Dawn Iacobucci, a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania. Comparing Harvard and Yale to McDonald's and Burger King, Iacobucci said the industry leaders should remain silent when the other endures negative press coverage, although smaller competitors such as Taco Bell and Wendy's might feel freer to speak out.</p>

<p>"I think that Yale could come out smelling like roses by being courteous and professional and silent," Iacobucci said. "I think that they know it could have been them as targets just as easily."</p>

<p>While Levin has stayed mum about Harvard, despite student protest, the presidents of Princeton, Stanford and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology criticized Summers' remarks in a joint letter earlier this month."</p>

16

<p>(from the Daily Princetonian)</p>

<p>"Some professors and administrators at... have suggested that frustration with Summers may open up possibilities for recruitment to Princeton.</p>

<p>Engineering school dean Maria Klawe said that Princeton has "been very proactive in the last several years looking for more outstanding scholars that can contribute to the diversity of the institution."</p>

<p>As "many [Harvard] faculty are upset," she said, they may be more willing to consider a move.</p>

<p>(From this morning's "Daily Princetonian)</p>

<p>"I don't see all the departments saying, 'Who's at Harvard that we can steal?'" she said. "But we have our eyes and ears open."</p>

<p>Physics department chair Daniel Marlow said his department is "always on the lookout for top faculty people, especially women."</p>

<p>"If an opportunity came along, we'd look into it and perhaps act," he added.</p>

<p>Physics professor Curtis Callan said in an email that a "mass exodus" is unlikely.</p>

<p>"Harvard has unique strengths and is a redoubtable competitor, so we are happy for any advantage we can get," he said. "However, I don't think the current 'situation' at Harvard is likely to benefit us in more than a marginal and temporary way, if at all."</p>

17

<p>Harvard faculty defections started long ago. Faculty/Administration tension is well documented (check the Boston Globe archives). As soon as many instructors have published and built up a reputation, they leave. What does this tell you?</p>

18

<p>It tells you that most schools will give their eye teeth to upgrade their faculty with people bearing the Harvard imprimatur. </p>

<p>They wait anxiously, like so many jackels circling the campfire, to see who gets tenure at Harvard and who doesn't. The rejects are eagerly gobbled up. </p>

<p>It has ever been thus. </p>

<p>Harvard's "yield rate" for recruiting top faculty is nearly as high as its yield rate for recruiting top students, however.</p>

19

<p>Byerly, Someone forgot to tell the Boston based Atlantic Monthly, the Princeton Review, and the College Prowl'r Guide that the "rest are small fry".
In each of those, as you are well aware, your beloved H stood well behind the "small fry" in both academic and student rankings. One "very small fry" (Princeton) has never been placed behind your "big fry" (H) in any recognized, national undergraduate ranking. In fact, P & Y, both outdrew H in apps (on a per slot basis) long before this controversy with Summers started.</p>

<p>It has become clear now that when you do not have facts to support a claim, your immediate response is to attack the messenger. You have done this now repeatedly, particularly when it involves one of Summers gaffes. </p>

<p>I know you have tried hard to dig up dirt on the Presidents of MSP (as this has become your mo) but one of the reasons they are there is because they are clean. I suggest your time would be better spent trying to repair the damage done to women across America. The Presidents of MSP, as highly respected scientists, banded together to send a very clear message across the country.
No person should be allowed to harm the psyche of the young and the innocent. I only hope their message was received by all young students as well as it was received by you.</p>

<p>P.S. Your post above reveals a deep wound. Try and put yourself however in the shoes of a young female who heard from a highly placed source, that genetically, she just doesn't have it. A bigger wound, agree?</p>

20

<p>I think Byerly is referring to Harvard as a University and not as an undergraduate institution - which I think your citations are ranking. </p>

<p>Another YDN article however seemed to indicate that the bad situation at Harvard and Princeton's departmental needs are circumstantial and a matter of good timing for Princeton - not a "vulture" syndrome.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28499%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=28499&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>edit: here's the quote
"But Princeton's recruitment efforts may not be that different from Yale's, Salovey said, adding that he thinks Princeton's current recruiting interests at Harvard may be "a bit coincidental."
(Peter Salovey, Dean of Yale College)</p>