<p>I love the dog analogy! I agree with you, sakky. Why should an excellent student in one of the humanities or social sciences, or physics or math for that matter, be penalized in applying to graduate or professional school because he discovered as a freshman that chemical engineering wasn't his thing? </p>
<p>Here's a question, though. We all know what the weeder courses are, but how often does a college acknowledge that certain courses are, in fact, the weeders?</p>
<p>That's yet another part of the problem (weeders have many problems). Many schools will refuse to admit that certain classes are weeders, and will therefore force the students to find out -often times via the hard way - which classes are weeders and which aren't. </p>
<p>I think that weeder classes should be publicly identified and headlined in red ink in the course catalog, so that everybody can see at a glance what classes are weeders. What might also help is if some designation exists on the official transcript to denote which courses are weeders, like a big asterisk next to the grade. </p>
<p>But of course this all presupposes that engineering departments really want to help their students out. From what I have seen, sadly, many don't. Many seem to have the attitude of simply not caring about students who get weeded out.</p>
<p>The problem is, what some people call "weeder" course are integral parts of the curriculum. Many people at Georgia Tech consider the general physics courses to be weeders. They are tough courses and historically, between 20-25% percent of the class gets a D or F (both grades are not sufficient to move on to the engineering program). But even putting a warning does not make it an easier class. Weeder classes are not optional, they are there to test which students can perform and those who can't. And I do not think that disregarding a grade that you get in physics or calculus simply because of its high failure rate is the solution. Weeder courses in engineering programs are often not arbitrary, they are essential to doing well in engineering. It would be a different scenario if the course was completely arbitrary, and the professor asked the freshmen students to prove Fourier's analytic proof of quadratic reciprocity just for the hell of it. If you can't do basic physics, calculus, chemistry, or whatever other "general" class that your program considers a weedout class, then you simply cannot move on to the real engineering curriculum.</p>
<p>I don't view this is a 'problem' at all. Sure, they're integral parts of the engineering curriculum... for those people who complete the curriculum. But what about those who don't? What about those who get weeded out? If some guy comes in wanting to major in ChemE and gets weeded out by the tough OChem classes such that he now majors in PoliSci, what does it matter what his OChem grades are? Let him go off the PoliSci with a clean slate. What's the point in tagging him with an F in OChem? </p>
<p>The department has weeded him out. He's not a ChemE student anymore. The department has proved its point and maintained his standards. What more is to be gained by permanently marring his academic record? </p>
<p>So what I think should be done is that the weeders all need to be publicly identified, and with special grading rules, such that if you don't end up majoring in something for which that weeder is an integral part, then you ought to be able to expunge your grades in those weeders without penalty. Why should a guy have to carry all of these bad weeder grades on his transcript if he ends up majoring in an unrelated discipline?</p>
<p>Did you get "weeded out" Sakky?</p>
<p>No, thank God. I was one of the lucky ones. </p>
<p>But I know plenty of people who did, and it's just a sad sight. These people basically have their academic careers ruined. And for what? Because they inadvertently chose the wrong major coming in? Where's the justice in that.</p>
<p>Look, the guys got weeded out of engineering because they weren't good enough. Fine. Let those guys pursue some other major with a clean slate. Why continue to hound them? Who cares what your grade was in circuit analysis if you end up majoring in Spanish?</p>
<p>Hi, i'm pursuing Electrical Engineering degree next year, what is the typical <code>weed-out</code> course for people like me.</p>
<p>It seems to me that it should be something related to the major and not Mechanics or E&M or such..thanks for the help guys.</p>
<p>I hope I don't get weeded out :)</p>
<p>Would any colleges agree to just report gpa from the major school? So if you graduated from the "arts and sciences" school, your grades from "the engineering school" would not be reported? If you graduated from "the nursing" school, grades from non-nursing curriculum would not be calculated? (does that make sense?)</p>
<p>Sakky, I've read your posts for years. Who ARE you?</p>
<p>Slorg, if you've read my posts for years, then you should know that I don't answer questions about my biography publicly. I follow the same policy that people like ariesathena do in keeping certain things concealed. </p>
<p>Lfk725, your proposal is an excellent first step. In addition, I would also report on transcripts not just the grades a particular student earned in a particular class, but also the average grade earned by all of the students in that class. So if a student gets an A- where the average grade given out is an A (and I've seen this happen in some classes), then the fact that that person actually got a below-average grade for that class should be clearly visible on the person's transcript. On the other hand, if a person gets a C+ in a class where a C is the average grade (and I've seen this happen too), then the fact that he actually got an above-average grade should also be made clear. </p>
<p>Furthermore, honorifics like graduation "cum laude" or scholarship oferings should be made not based on straight GPA, but on whether you have actually performed above-average for the classes that you took. For example, if all you got were C+'s and B's, but the average grades of all the classes you took were C's, then you should be in line to graduate with honors (i.e. 'cum laude'). If on the other hand, you took extremely easy grade-inflated classes and actually got below-average grades for those classes, then you should not be able to win any honors even if your nominal GPA is high. In other words, I am proposing a "GPA-deflator" similar to how economics use deflators to correct for the effect of inflation on the money supply.</p>
<p>"What is the typical <code>weed-out</code> course for people like me?</p>
<p>Almost all who leave engineering do so in the first or second year. During that time you take mainly science and math courses and only some engineering courses. Courses that can lead to weed-out include physics, and for many chemistry and differential equations, for electrical engineers it can include the first course in circuits. However, it will vary among colleges and students. There is much debate over whether the courses are designed to be "weed-out" courses or instead are just difficult courses no matter what.</p>
<p>Ehh..Performance in lower level classes doesn't mean very much. I went to a very marginal school in PR and when i got to UIUC for Aerospace Engineering, i had a hard time adjusting. I got a C+ in Calc I and a C in Physics I. My advisor said to switch to business because of the C's in "mickey mouse math and physics". But i worked hard and compensated for it. By my junior year I was usually the #2 or #3 student in my core Aero classes. My GPA was even strong enough such that i could transfer to GA Tech, which I did, which has a much stronger Aero/Astro program.</p>
<p>I think HS gives people a false sense of confidence. American High school is a joke. You can get by many classes by hard work alone. But when it comes to engineering hard work alone won't cut it. Thats why many people fail out. Weed out programs eliminates who truly is smart enough to succeed. If you goofed off instead of studying then its their problems. Of course this applies in general.</p>
<p>Sakky, do you expect any colleges to ever implement some of the changes which you call for. Obviously, it seems like some schools, notably MIT and Caltech implement some, but is there any more widespread move towards making these decisions.</p>
<p>Also, a lot of the problems which you are describing basically seem to come down to the fact that engineers experience extreme grade deflation, while other majors tend to experience tremendous grade inflation. Wouldn't it simply be easier to address this, the root cause, rather than to implement the changes to the grades, or the results of this inherent root cause. </p>
<p>In other words, rather than stating that a student received an a- in a class where the average was an a, simply make sure there aren't classes where the average is a.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sakky, do you expect any colleges to ever implement some of the changes which you call for. Obviously, it seems like some schools, notably MIT and Caltech implement some, but is there any more widespread move towards making these decisions.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, first off, there is a certain famous engineering school located in Palo Alto that seems to be highly enlightened and progressive when it comes to weeding. MIT and Caltech are starting to creep (ever so slowly) towards the philosophy of that school. </p>
<p>So maybe at some point in the future, we will have MIT, Caltech, and that other school serving as shining examples of how you can have an engineering school that is both rigorous and highly respected, but also compassionate. You don't have to be bloody in order to deliver a good engineering education. That school in Palo Alto is living proof. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, a lot of the problems which you are describing basically seem to come down to the fact that engineers experience extreme grade deflation, while other majors tend to experience tremendous grade inflation. Wouldn't it simply be easier to address this, the root cause, rather than to implement the changes to the grades, or the results of this inherent root cause. </p>
<p>In other words, rather than stating that a student received an a- in a class where the average was an a, simply make sure there aren't classes where the average is a.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>We can certainly dream, can't we? But I'm not going to hold my breath in waiting for Godot. As for right now, the engineering departments can't just sit around waiting for the other departments to reform their grading schemes. In the long run, what you propose would indeed solve the problem, but as Keynes once said, "In the long run, we're all dead."</p>