Weight of EC's for music kids in application process

<p>The whole process can make you crazy, yet what often gets lost is that many “kids” at this age are multi-interested, as well as multi-talented. I agree with musicprnt that padding a resume with EC’s for the sake of attaining that magic number is ludicrous. </p>

<p>Genuine interest, or dedicated & motivated (dare I say passionate) desire to effect a cause, be it within a social, altruistic, or faith based motivation are valid means for participation. As is having an appropriate skill set (or desire to attain them) a reason for participation.</p>

<p>Don’t forget that in many cases, the EC may also be an extension of a social group or clique, or cause Jenny is the president and my son may have thought that Jenny was quite hot, and prior to that he expressed not one scintilla of interest in advanced clay throwing.</p>

<p>What makes the choices difficult for a high level music, sports, or academic kid is that many times the other EC’s will begin to conflict. Some can do it all and succeed at the top of the heap in all. Some can’t.</p>

<p>It’s that simple. It’s a know your kid scenario. And if yours has “passion(s)”, let them follow it. </p>

<p>But that’s just my $.02.</p>

<p>A somewhat similar discussion <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/738525-how-strong-music-ec.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/738525-how-strong-music-ec.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And, as I said before, the process can make you crazy. :smiley:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1060280742-post12.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1060280742-post12.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Viola-</p>

<p>Nicely put. My problem with the whole mania with college admissions is that the perceptions are dangerous, because perceptions can become reality if we aren’t careful. In a world where kids are all showing X ec’s, it is quite easy for a college to take the easy path and say “X ec’s is a minimum”. In some ways it is like what the SAT became (and hopefully is waning a bit), instead of being one indicator to use, many schools started using it as a primary focus, rather then looking at the entire student. Laziness is part of human nature, or rather satisficing. (I also believe the same thing about music school admissions, where it boils down to a 10 minute audition, pretty much alone)…</p>

<p>I have a little problem with EC’s not telling the entire story though. I know a kid who was in everything. But he was also LATE to everything. He even had a few leadership positions. Once in a while he would show up to each activity/group/organization/rehearsal. But never al fo them in a single week. It’s not like all of them conflicted, he just never cared too much.</p>

<p>My rpoblem with this is, because the EC"s never usually have references to list, he is the best looking student ON PAPER. I myself was in probably about 75% of everything he was, but I am so neat about everything, that I have to do my best in everything I do. Because the colleges don’t have time, or particularly care, to follow up with each reference, it makes it hard to see past the paper submission.</p>

<p>I’m sure colleges would much rather have a kid who’s busy adn does everything well/complete than one who is just in everything and who doesn’t know how to manage his time and goes in half-heartedly.</p>

<p>I suspect that colleges really appreciate kids who have a passion (or two, or whatever) AND really follow through with it (them). There’s a bit of difference between being very involved in multiple activities, and real achievement in a subject one is passionate about, and I think colleges can pretty much tell the difference (if they are bothering to look, after test scores & GPA). I am not an admissions person of any kind, but I have heard a top private medical school Admissions Director say (more than once) that they love students who have a passion, any passion, & really excel, go all the way with it, do the very best they can. He himself majored in the Humanities. In other words, one doesn’t need to major in a science to be attractive to med schools, one just has to excel in whatever it is one loves to do/learn (oh, and take science classes). Obviously med school admissions is off topic, but I think perhaps there’s a lesson there for anyone. A student who loves music & does literally nothing else (my son is the same, though not in a performing arts school - wouldn’t he love that!) but is doing it with all his/her heart, and doing very well with it, ought to (with, obviously, all the other basic admissions requirements) be able to go anywhere he/she likes. Keeping in mind what someone said above, schools like diversity! A mix of single-minded achievers and super multi-taskers is probably a good thing. The more I’ve read this site, and the more I’ve looked around & talked with people & so on, the more I think there is no one perfect answer. Each student just has to do the best he/she can, and find a good match. Of course, that’s easy for me to say, as my son just finished 10th. :)</p>

<p>Since this is the music board and all, it really needs to be reiterated that it isn’t at all unusual for these kids to have no other ECs than those related to music…and they are still busy from morning to night. For kids applying to BA music programs, perhaps the expectation is to be a passionate, yet “well rounded”, student. This isn’t true for conservatory BM students-to-be.</p>

<p>For conservatories, ECs like student council and debate and yearbook are simply not on the radar screen for any of the dozens of kids whom we know who are going or have gone this route. Their varied musical activities take up any and all available time, and give them ample opportunities to show leadership, planning, organization etc., and of course, passion.</p>

<p>The one mistake I made was not insisting that my child build a service component for her resume. We talked about it and never made it happen. She will be at a great conservatory this fall - her first choice. However, there were numerous scholarships that we could not apply for because of the community service requirement. In addition, the Presidential Scholar of the Arts award requires a significant service commitment and we just didn’t have enough to make it to the final level.</p>

<p>POTO Mom is echoing my position. Your kids might be able to get into music school on the basis of their audition, but if they want scholarship money, they are going to need the whole package – grades, ec’s community activity, etc.<br>
If you read Katherine Cohen who has written several books on Ivy’s, she will tell you that schools want kids who focus in a particular area – they want a diverse student body made up of students who are passionate about one or two areas, not necessarily well-rounded students. On ec’s in general – I know one situation in particular that really illustrates the point. We know a young lady who had gozillions of AP classes, virtually straight A’s in her four years of high school; very high SAT’s and she failed to get into any of the schools she applied to (A minus schools) including the state university. Why – I can only surmise. She had no ec’s and her essays were weak. It was a trajedy. My advice – encourage students to get involved in activities which serve multiple masters. Besides – I see nothing at all wrong with young adults playing their instruments in nursing homes. A little heart goes a long way in making a good musician.</p>

<p>Scholarships and merit awards that are contingent upon public service obviously would require proof of such activity, and if that is commonplace where a lot of award money is tied up in being involved in public service, then it is something that should be thought of.</p>

<p>A word of caution about that, unless I have been reading the wrong things and talking to the wrong people, what applies to an LAC music program probably doesn’t apply in terms of music conservatories (I can’t speak about Bard or Rice or Indiana where students are dual tracked)…in the stand alone music programs, everything I have heard and read say that merit scholarship is based almost strictly on the musical ability of the student and also to a certain extent need (for example, if they have a particular need for an english horn player, or a good tubist, or whatever, they may extend more merit aid to that student to try and attract them from what I can tell, whereas for example a violonist may get less since most schools are flooded with violin talent…and of course there are other factors). They are very different then an ivy school or other type of LAC, it is a very different process.</p>

<p>Again with EC’s and public service, I don’t think anyone is arguing music students shouldn’t volunteer or do public service (many music programs already do that, in many cases their grants require them to do so and with chamber programs and such public service is stock in trade). I think the point people are making is that this mad rush to have as many ec’s as possible is unfounded mania, and that schools are looking for a lot of different things when it comes to students. The girl with the straight A’s and AP’s mentioned who didn’t get in probably didn’t get in because she didn’t demonstrate anything unique compared to other students, didn’t demonstrate a passion other then gettting good grades (I wonder if her abyssmal essays were because she didn’t have anything to write about she cared about…), and that same girl if she for example played an instrument, or won a science competition, or worked for a non profit or whatever, would have demonstrated something different, rather then simply not having EC’s or a volunteer background. And I also think it is better to find a volunteer position or ec’s that interest the student, rather then simply doing them to fill some requirement, other then real or perceived, that’s all.</p>

<p>As far as doing public service, I think kids should be encouraged to, but for the right reasons. Doing a volunteer position because it looks good on a resume is asinine IMO, because first of all it is missing the point of having a kid do something that matters and that they care about, and secondly it is harmful to the volunteer group. From personal experience with kids and their parents who believe the EC storyline and get them to do as much as possible, for those who have to deal with these kids it is actually a negative, they often have to spend more time getting the kids to actually show up and do things when they do show up then they get baclk, which is supposed to be the same point. I don’t think anyone, least myself, is saying that music students shouldn’t do EC’s, only telling them that they don’t have to mimic the ‘EC monsters’ who flood a resume with meaningless stats, that’s all, and that in many cases what they are doing as musicians probably counts more, if they are passionate, then volunteering at X groups and being in Y clubs, that’s all.</p>

<p>Cutting back on EC’s during audition season is probably a good idea.</p>

<p>Sorry to be contrary here…but my son, the music performance major, got a very generous performance award from Boston University. His ONLY community service was playing music for community events. He didn’t participate in sports (after 10th grade…music activities were in the way) or student government or school clubs or any other service projects). He still got a scholarship to his university. </p>

<p>DD didn’t do much either except music music music. It didn’t prevent her from getting accepted to her number one school. She didn’t have the stats to be a scholarship recipient at the school anyway (only top students…think NMSF status or better) garner scholarships at her school. </p>

<p>There is no way either of my kids could have fit in a community service project or any other kind of EC in their already busy high school schedules and I wasn’t going to push them to do something for the sake of “padding their resumes” when the activity was of little interest to them.</p>

<p>They both had the same thought…this is who I am…if the college(s) want me…fine…otherwise, I don’t want them either.</p>

<p>Good thought…be who you are not who you think someone else THINKS you should be.</p>

<p>The scholarships I was referring to are ones that are not school-related. D got a very nice merit scholarship, too, from her Conservatory but it is not a full scholarship. As I researched other corporate scholarships - they typically had a community service part of the application. There certainly were opportunities for her to contribute. She loved teaching at the summer arts program. She likes singing at the retirement home. She enjoys volunteering for some of the local fund-raisers. However, the last two she didn’t start doing until spring of her senior year - a little too late. Maybe it’s not for everybody but I just wish I had been told early on that there was a great deal of scholarship money available that depended on community service. We would have orchestrated free time a little differently.</p>

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<p>I love the “play on words”. I understand what you mean…but I personally would not have changed what my kids did. They did what was of interest to them…they were who they were. And they didn’t have much free time to orchestrate anyway!</p>

<p>I just remember “free time” as being EXTREMELY rare. And I agree with thumper, my D was incredibly busy just being herself. It worked out pretty well. Strangely enough, she is now very active in community service…maybe it’s because we never forced it on her.</p>

<p>My son has been a music prodigy since he was three. He performed, composed, conducted, mentored, and taught throughout middle school and high school. He’s now a Physics/Computer Science double-major at MIT, though he has continued to take piano lessons and perform in the school symphony. I believe his varied music interests separated him from many other applicants with great statistics, grades, scores, etc. (interestingly, over 40% of the kids there participate in music programs). Music remains his hobby, his outlet for stress, his passion. The point is that music was not just an EC for him. As said by someone else, this becomes obvious to the Adcoms so I wouldn’t worry about it (but be sure to highlight it in the applications).</p>

<p>I agree that padding resumes or over scheduling are undesirable and even counter productive; it’s also true that admissions officers respond positively to genuine passion.<br>
I do think that if opportunities are not offered through the school, that is well understood by admissions offices, but there are students who–if their school doesn’t provide what they want–will go out and find it for themselves, and that is also to their credit. (Ex. is a friend of my son’s at an engineering magnet school who was frustrated by lack of performing arts ECs so started a small drama club). </p>

<p>I personally feel that community service should be a requirement. I think it is a statement about our culture that the discussion of community service in our children’s lives has to be couched in terms of what admissions officers think! </p>

<p>When we say free time is scarce, I think it is an understatement. I have never seen a generation of young people so stretched to achieve on every front and there is extensive burnout among them. But I do think there is a valuable reason why a young musician might donate an hour of their very scare free time once per month to play in a nursing home, or even once a week to arrange loans of instruments for inner city children and to coach them and extend their musical horizons. </p>

<p>It is so easy in the competitive music world to feel that the music is all about the musician–how well they play, who they can outplay, where they will get into conservatory, how big will their career be. I do believe there is a value for a young musician to realize the huge privilege they have in being able to study classical music at a high level and that not every child has that opportunity; it can also be important to understand that the music they perform is a gift to their audience.</p>

<p>When I made the few suggestions I did for minimal ways to add some outreach or service into a busy young musician’s life, I was motivated by the same principles mentioned by KofH–it develops the heart and can give valuable life lessons in organizational skills and “real world” interactions. </p>

<p>I also think that it can be a refreshing and revitalizing break for a music kid to explore a non-music EC on an occasional basis.</p>

<p>D was accepted into a performing arts High School .For many reasons we decided on a well rounded private high school instead. The school did not have a strong music program, but did have community service hours and options during the school day (every day). She was already on track with an excellent teacher and professional opportunities in voice as her “EC’s”. It never even occured to us to list community service on aps, since it was part of her school everyday. I imagine if she didnt have that daily opportunity, we may have encouraged her to pursue service, but never as application “padding”.</p>

<p>Great topic! I guess I’ll weigh in…</p>

<p>So I sit on the admission committee of a college with an acceptance rate that goes between 20-25% (and the conservatory admits around 15% of auditions). It’s not quite like those schools with less than 10%–places like Harvard, or Juilliard–but part of our job is routinely turning away more people than apply. I read the file of every conservatory applicant, but also read files of general applicants to the college. My own life experiences have shaped the way I handle the “subjective” components of the application process (once we’ve calculated the student’s GPA using our own criteria, and noted any AP’s, things like National Merit, etc.). Here’s a few ways in which my thinking and impressions have been shaped:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I worked for a while conducting a youth orchestra in New Jersey. Most of the kids in the orchestra were the children of Princeton faculty, or scientists/executives in the big pharma companies in the neighborhood, or other professionals. It was a kind of hothouse environment where parents would sit and chat during the rehearsals, and compare notes and experiences in much the same way we trade posts here on CC. Kids would go to Chile for a summer to build something or other, or they’d go tutor in Trenton, or candystripe, or take a class or two at Princeton (or a summer science course at another university). Kids in this orchestra went to both good music schools (like NEC and CIM), as well as some of the best academic schools (including–surprise–Princeton). I loved this job…most of the kids were really great, bright, and fun to be around. One is even a student of mine here at Bard. However, some number of them (I’ll say, somewhat arbitrarily, ~40%) had no business being in this youth orchestra. They could play an instrument rather well, but the moment I put down my baton to rehearse a different section of the orchestra, the graphing calculators would come out, or Spanish verbs would get conjugated. It always took an extra minute or two to get the full orchestra’s attention (extra on top of the scrambling and looking for the right rehearsal letter that is typical of a youth orchestra) to get the 18-pound chemistry textbook off the lap and the violin under the chin. The passion of music-making, the ability to listen and concentrate during a rehearsal, these elements were totally absent in these students. It was my biggest pet peeve in the job, and I take that experience with me when I go and see someone’s listing “youth orchestra” as an EC on their app. The Common App does attempt to be helpful, by asking if someone plans to continue a particular activity in college. Not that answering “No” to that question is necessarily a bad thing (wouldn’t expect it for yearbook or cheerleading anyway), but if you say you did Amnesty in HS, and then say you don’t plan to do that in college, and there’s very little in your record that mentions Amnesty (nothing in either essay, none of your teachers mention it, your guidance counselor doesn’t mention it either), that shades my interpretation of your investment in that particular activity. I believe this is what most adcoms mean by “passion”–they basically want to see whether you’re doing something just to do it (which isn’t a bad thing, it’s not like it counts against you or anything), or whether you’re truly invested in it as an ACT OF PLEASURE.</p></li>
<li><p>I once overheard a current Bard student, in a moment of indiscretion, complain about having to travel up to Albany to perform a concert at a nursing home. Now this person was very busy that week, and we all get cagey when we’ve got a lot on our plates, so whatever. But after that moment I started looking at the charity/community service claims of our applicants a little more critically. Bard students do a lot of community service, so that’s very important to us in the application process. There’s lots of good ways to show your altruism and community spirit without looking too self-serving. Simply ask the person best acquainted with your service (the manager of the animal shelter, or the coordinator at the nursing home) to write a letter on your behalf. If you have a genuine connection to this person, it won’t feel like you just showed up one day, baled hay for a few hours, then said “here fill in this form.” Send in a copy of the programs if you have them–then it changes from “playing at various church-sponsored charity events” to something more concrete: in your senior year, you played at 8 events to raise money for Haiti, and then a local paper clipping says those efforts helped raise $2,000. The bigger issue, the one hinted at by a record of community service, is whether an applicant has the kind of human qualities we value above and beyond virtuosity. And honestly, as hokey as it sounds, very often it comes across in the playing–an individual who is there to serve music, rather than be served by it. There are those who are truly invested in learning, in growing, and exploring, and then there are those who play in instrument because they CAN, and for them it’s about how awesome they are, that they can tear up a particularly hard etude or roar through a concerto. Bravado is necessary to convince an audience, but if it’s all about you, then…</p></li>
<li><p>I worked all through high school. I cooked, washed dishes, and also had a stint in a vitamin factory (I was paid to stare at vitamins). With this money I was able to pay for my cello and also go to some out of state music camps. Now had I took all the time spent working and converted it in to hours in the practice room, I would have had better prospects for music school admission, and the program where I now work has very high standards, so I recognize the need for young musicians to put in the hours with their instrument. But I guess I do have a soft spot in my heart for someone who’s worked an actual job while in high school. In some ways I’m convinced a summer spent working at Burger King teaches more than a summer spent building a school down in Peru. I once sliced the tip of one of my thumbs off at my job, though, and that cost me a chance to perform in an important concert, so choose your job carefully! </p></li>
<li><p>I think an important part of the conversation should be “raw materials.” How does the student play the hand she’s dealt? This has musical implications as well. One particular teacher here at Bard (and considered one of the finest teachers in the country on this instrument) really focuses on this during the audition and the decision-making process. If the student is coming from Interlochen, or Juilliard Pre-college, or from a teacher well-known to this faculty member as having consistently outstanding students, there’s this sense that he needs to demonstrate he’s really come very very far. The stakes are higher. As far as the general college admission process is concerned, outside of auditions, I want to see what kind of environment this particular student grew up in, and how the student made use of the opportunities that upbringing provided. We also learn as much as we can about the school itself: the guidance counselor is supposed to furnish us with all sorts of good information, like the number of AP courses offered, whether the school caps the number of AP classes a student can take, what % from that school go on to college, whether the GPA is weighted, whether the school ranks its students, etc. The counselor is asked to rate your course load relative to other students (less demanding, average, very demanding, most demanding).</p></li>
<li><p>Reading comments to The Choice blog on the NY Times website, and particular any time Harvard’s Admissions Dean is featured, is kind of a depressing exercise. It’s similar to other areas of the CC website–fortunately the music major forum is spared so much drama! There’s a lot of anxiety out there, wanting to make the right decision and so on, and so it’s good to seek out advice, to want to better understand the process. And it’s especially important now, as we’re in a bit of a demographic bulge when it comes to graduating high school seniors. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Contributing to this anxiety is the fact that the whole process just isn’t terribly predictable. Each year, the decisions made in admissions offices nationwide are for that year’s group of students. And while stacks of prior years’ statistics can be gleaned to make conclusions about what will happen in the coming years, it’s still not an exact science. </p>

<p>Actually, at one point in history, college admissions tried to be scientific. At the turn of the 20th century, Harvard began using an examination, and if you scored above a certain level, and could afford the tuition, you got in. A problem soon developed, though: too many of the “wrong sort of people” (Jews) were getting in. And so the more subjective components of the admission process–beginning to measure intangibles like “drive”, “ambition”, “character” became cover for ensuring Harvard remained, in the eyes of those who ran the place, Harvard. (Waspy, New England, “St. Grottlesex.”) And it’s perhaps that legacy–that in the past these subjective criteria were used to discriminate–that makes people nervous nowadays. </p>

<ol>
<li>For anyone with the time and energy and interest, I really recommend reading these three things: they’ve shaped how I view this process, and ultimately how I read files of applicants to the college. (Fortunately, like all schools, there’s a committee, and my input is weighed against the impressions of many others. It’s not like I’m some Roman emperor–the thumb goes down and the applicant is torn apart by lions, like in that crazy Respighi tone poem Feste Romane.)</li>
</ol>

<p>A nice New Yorker article by Malcom Gladwell (Blink, Outliers, Tipping Point) giving a lot of good background on the subjective admission process: [Getting</a> In : The New Yorker](<a href=“Getting In | The New Yorker”>Getting In | The New Yorker) </p>

<p>A quote I particularly like from the article: “The endless battle over admissions in the United States proceeds on the assumption that some great moral principle is at stake in the matter of whom schools like Harvard choose to let in—that those who are denied admission by the whims of the admissions office have somehow been harmed. If you are sick and a hospital shuts its doors to you, you are harmed. But a selective school is not a hospital, and those it turns away are not sick.”</p>

<p>Another thing to read is “Overachievers,” a book by Alexandra Robbins (who also wrote an interesting book on sororities called “Pledged”): [Alexandra</a> Robbins: The Overachievers | The Secret Lives of Driven Kids](<a href=“http://www.alexandrarobbins.com/theoverachievers/]Alexandra”>http://www.alexandrarobbins.com/theoverachievers/)</p>

<p>And finally, I can’t help but mention the Ivy League entry from the Stuff White People Like blog. It’s hilarious! (And you can insert Juilliard for Harvard and it would certainly apply to music): [Stuff</a> White People Like #98: The Ivy League](<a href=“http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/05/06/98-the-ivy-league/]Stuff”>#98 The Ivy League | Stuff White People Like)</p>

<p>BOY did I like that Gladwell piece. THANKS</p>

<p>The weight of EC is very heavy in the middle of college admission process, especially for the schools that are highly selective (acceptance rate of 5~20%). How about connect your music or art activities with similar activities from other schools, such as Triple C ([Triple</a> C , Youtheca](<a href=“http://www.youtheca.com/activity/triplec]Triple”>http://www.youtheca.com/activity/triplec)) or Art for Change ([Art</a> 4 Change , Youtheca](<a href=“http://www.youtheca.com/activity/art4change]Art”>http://www.youtheca.com/activity/art4change))… These are some great activities that may work with you. College admissions officers love to see that you are not just limited to your school but to your community and other communities. Collaboration of musical concerts or some definitive projects may help you or your sons or daughters greatly in the middle of college admission processes.</p>