<p>iderochi - our school gives the courses in AP Art and AP Music. But choosing to rank by the five academic areas merely mimics what the colleges do when THEY perform their own ranking - unless, of course, it is a performing arts school. The music and art students get all kinds of OTHER awards on awards night. </p>
<p>ASAP, again, it's no longer JUST about sal and val (which they could do away with, for all I care - except for certain scholarships). It's because being in the top 10% is now a major admissions point (as nedad said, check the Common Data Set for the college - more and more have moved "Rank" to the top category in admissions).</p>
<p>13% of Stanford's student body (roughly 845 students) was not in the top 10% of their class; 10% of Harvard's (650), and 15% of Williams (290). It goes down from there.</p>
<p>varonwe - Yes, colleges do care about where you fall, and it's something that the HS knows and the counselors do report. Cum laude at our school is the top 10% of juniors, and 15% of seniors, so sure, they know who they are. They have a nice evening ceremony for this group and their parents, and then they announce the students at the senior awards ceremony when all the different types of awards are given. But no one student gets single out for being "the best", which I think is nice.</p>
<p>Mini - hmm, USNews Ultimate College Guide lists 99% at Yale being in top 10%, with 100% in the top 25%. They list Stanford at 90% in the top 10% and 98% in the top 25%. Harvard is 90% in top ten 10%, 98% in top 25%. This is data for the freshmen that entered in 2003.</p>
<p>Looks like just another hurdle! I hear that there are now 2.5 million kids high school kids each year, which means 250,000 in the top 10%!</p>
<p>lderochi, Well perhaps I should have qualified that. Yes, I'm aware of the prejudice towards an arts-concentration student that results from such weighting. I have such a (second) child. But in my experience, these students tend not to apply to the intellectually upper-level colleges, because of their interests. Most artsy people I've met are between bright & brilliant, so this is not an intellectual ability question, but an orientation & a program. None of those particular associates of mine would belong at an Ivy or at a similarly rigorous college which has a cerebral emphasis, because those institutions would not have the full range of creative possiblities within their academic programs that certain other colleges do -- even those that are not Arts-only schools. Colleges & programs-within-colleges that attract such students evaluate differently -- with much more consideration given to e.c. accomplishment in the arts. </p>
<p>And I don't think the problem is as much the fact that AP courses & exams have not been created for creative writing, drama, voice, & instrumental performance, but that such a vehicle would not be the way to measure potential, talent, & achievement in those areas, for college admission purposes. E.C. & Co-c. activities & accomplishments are a better measure (I think).</p>
<p>AP Art History, AP Music Theory, AP Studio Art all do exist. The first 2 are quite cerebral; i.m.o., they do not measure artistic potential, even though I've been thrilled when they've been offered to my D's.</p>
<p>If you believe Michelle Hernandez, then ranking does matter, particularly for those kids in the top 4%. According to Michelle, for schools that don't rank, the adcoms assume top 10% (as denoted by GC) really means the midpoint of an unranked class. Thus, for that kid who would be top ten in a class of 400, s/he gets dropped to #20 in the eyes of the adcoms. With the top schools filling 30+% of their slots with Vals and Sals, I believe it is a big issue. Many schools dropped ranking for rational purposes (taking honors orchestra, for example hurts the top kids in a weighted gpa school bcos honors orch is not a weighted class - some excellent musicians even used to audit the orchestra class bcos they didn't want to hurt thier gpa)......on the other hand....some parents (and educators) beleive we should not rank kids bcos those in the middle or on the bottom would have their feelings hurt...</p>
<p>Fortunately, for Cal kids, with advent of ELC, at least the top 4% are identified for UC purposes (all academic courses, weighted gpa), although I don't how a kid can explain to Stanford that Berkeley says s/he is in his/her HS top 4% (as calculated by the Golden Bears -- Stanford would likley demand a recount).</p>
<p>Our district ranks the top 10% only. About 6 years ago the district ranked everybody. They decided to go with this policy as it was felt that only the top 10% benefit from ranking for all the reasons stated-scholarships- top 10% recognition etc. The Ranking is also based on weighted average which adds 5 points for AP and 2 points for honors classes. The weighted grade appears on the official transcript only that is sent to colleges. The unweighted grade appears on report card and is used to calculate (unweighted) average. When our district decided to change policy, there were many meetings with community to explain changes. They also shared with parents a copy of school profile which is sent to the colleges with the students official transcript. My understanding is that all high schools provide a profile which will explain grading system-how classes are "weighted" and a list of all AP courses offered at the hs. My guess is that it clues the college in to what courses were available. So if the # 1 student has not availed himself to AP courses that were available, it may not be looked favorably by very competitive schools.<br>
I think the ranking of top 10% has worked well for my family. D # 1 was ranked so it was clear to all colleges where she stood in relationship to her classmates. D # 2 is a good student and her overall average will be around 88. My guess is that it would place her in about the top 1/3. But I don't think it's going to matter much if she was 80 or 103 in her graduating class- so I think it is beneficial that true ranking doesn't exist for 90% of the graduating class. Coincidental or not, we've gotten our first kids into Harvard & Princeton last year. I don't think we ever got kids into those schools before. Though many districts are getting away from ranking, I do believe the colleges like to know exactly where a student ranks in relationship to one another. Last year the top 10% (or thirty students) had weighted averages from 95 to 101 (equivalent to A + or 4.0). My guess is Harvard likes to know if you're # 1 or #30. For our district which is a typical middle class suburban public school -I think our ranking system helps our kids.</p>
<p>How does val/sal affect university admissions if applications are done in the fall and admissions occur by April? Do kids put "likely val" on their app or what? You would not know the val until the end.</p>
<p>Our school is quite unusual- the val is the person VOTED by the senior class to give the speech at grad day. Usually 4-6 people are nominated and they all give sppeeches to the seniors who then vote for their val. I thought it was odd, but listening to all the horror stories makes it quite appealing. I would really find some of the "unfair" val situations difficult to deal with.</p>
<p>I have always been against weighting grades. In addition to the arts, why shouldn't a kid who is a standout in auto mechanics have a shot at being in the top of the class? Weighting grades says that we place more value on certain classes than others, and sends the message that they have more value to the society. Students should take the classes that they want and that interest them without worrying about how taking an unweighted classe might drop their class rank. We usually have a dozen or so kids in our high school who finish with 4.0 unweighted. This is out of a class of around 500. Most of these kids take rigorous schedules and apply and are accepted to top schools. The school never names a val or sal and graduation speakers are the class officers. I really don't think it is as big of an issue as everyone likes to think it is. </p>
<p>Ultimately, if you child takes a rigorous curriculum, does their best, and takes classes that are of interest to him or her, then they will be fine and end up being accepted at a college that will provide them with an excellent education. And when all is said and done, isn' that the bottom line?</p>
<p>Data I had was from 2004 Princeton Review. But the Harvard, Stanford, and Williams data are all basically the same in both Princeton Review and U.S. News. In all these cases, more than 50% of the class is from the top 5% of families, "class ranked" economically speaking. If you are not in the top 5% economically, or, secondarily, bottom 35% (Pell Grant recipients), your chances of admission drop precipitiously, regardless of your school class rank.</p>
<p>The school class rank business counts more within the UC system than it does at the Ivies or elsewhere, and your economic class rank much less so. From what I can tell, they are also much less flexible.</p>
<p>My kid was first in her class! (also last.)</p>
<p>I was wondering about the "artsy" AP myself and whether they were a good measure of talent. Not that I'll ever find out with my two sons (believe me). Your point is well taken on the fact that many art and music students may not tend to apply or want to attend the "top" USNWR schools (though there are exceptions), but I think we're talking apples and oranges -- at least a little bit. </p>
<p>If Valedictorian, Salutatorian, etc. are looked at simply as high school honors, I still have a problem with weighting GPA's so as to effectively disqualify a number of students who for whatever reason (some legitimate, some maybe less so) chose not to load up on AP and Honors courses. This is especially true if, as several people here have stated, there are automatic scholarships attached to being a val or sal. </p>
<p>Class rank for admissions purposes is somewhat more problematic, because I agree that class rank is less of a factor for art and performing artist students as compared to extra-curriculars, portfolios, auditions, etc. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong on this. :) </p>
<p>So how to reconcile the two? I dunno. My S's high school does not weight for class rank or transcript purposes, but does do some weighting for purposes of National Honor Society membership. Seems a little weird and arbitrary, but I have a hard time getting worked up about it (and NHS membership may both directly and indirectly help with scholarships). I guess there's a good reason why these "weighted" discussions always bring out such passionate discussions -- it's just not an easy task to reconcile all of the competing issues.</p>
<p>The whole val situation can be quite distressing. It seems that there are so many variables that come into play. My D is teetering between one and two right now. She is a senior and has been number one since the end of freshman year. The beginning of this year she found out that she had become number two due to a B plus that she got from a ridiculous math teacher who graded much harder than the other math teacher who girl now number one had. My daughter's GPA is 3.95 and the other girl is 3.96. They will keep calculating rank until graduation so who knows what will happen. The girl who is now number one is very brilliant and deserving but I can't help but think if only my D didn't have that teacher... I have told my D that I am proud of her no matter what and not to worry about it. She already got into her first choice college ED. I know that she feels a lot of pressure. It had become the big story around school for awhile. Well meaning friends and relatives will often ask her if she's one or two. It's hard to let senioritis set in!</p>
<p>Do the same folks who care about sal val etc. also care about getting into the "right" school? Honestly, I'm having a hard time getting worked up over the issue.</p>
<p>Congrats to your D on her ED choice. In another 12 months, any high school honors that she coulda/woulda/mighta received will be long, long forgotten. I'd much rather my kids get into thier first choice college, whatever it may be, than earn any honor, no matter how high, that their HS would bestow; since my S is a Jr, I'd make that choice today, easily.</p>
<p>Since most Cal schools of which I am aware do not rank, only one UC actually re-ranks kids by HS and admits the top kids from that class; the other campuses are driven soley by gpa, SAT scores, and essay, aka, compassionate review. </p>
<p>Following Texas's approach, the 4% ELC is primarily to address the inner-city or rural poor school kids, which don't have the resources to offer AP or even honors courses. Yes, a suburban kid that is in the top 4% of his/her class is guaranteed admission to the University, but that only gets him/her a guaranteed acceptance to Merced, which will likely take 100% of all MINIMALLY qualified apps anyway, i.e., 2.9 UC-gpa. But, please note, that it is the UC that ranks the kids per HS and determines the ELC by the UC standards.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I really don't think it is as big of an issue as everyone likes to think it is. Ultimately, if you child takes a rigorous curriculum, does their best, and takes classes that are of interest to him or her, then they will be fine and end up being accepted at a college that will provide them with an excellent education. And when all is said and done, isn' that the bottom line?<<</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>That's <em>Part</em> of the bottom line and it is indeed a big issue...when schools hand out scholarships to Vals without looking at the RIGOR that the child with the 3.95 took as opposed to the 4.0, it is an issue. My son has been accepted into some schools that indeed he would be very happy at. But he did not get the "big" scholarships because he was not a perfect 4.0 anymore. If the scholarships and aid are not there then being accepted at the school means nothing if my son then can't go!</p>
<p>I think our school does it in a way that results in very little acrimony or controversy.</p>
<p>An example:</p>
<p>Every one takes English 11, the classes can be anywhere from AP to remedial, it is still English 11. Every one works at their own pace and receives marks accordingly. At the end of the year, every kid in grade 11 takes the very same English final exam, it is a substantial portion of one's grade, the exact percentage (running 40-60%) depending upon which level class you were in. In other words, for those in AP, the work all along has been more difficult and the exam should be easy for them, they should get a good mark, so it is a higher portion of the final mark. This takes care of the weighting issue.</p>
<p>Then the marks for all classes are recorded in exact number, you get a letter grade and a number on your report card. When the numbers are added up, there is no issue with rounding or pluses & minuses. It is exact and seems pretty fair.</p>
<p>The trick is having every student taking the same exam.</p>
<p>As to tough classes, yes, some people take AP physics and some people take much lighter sciences, but in general the top kids take the toughest classes. The person who might suffer is the one who chooses physics and gets a lower score than they might have gotten in oceanography. If you are in the top 20, but not top 10, you might benefit, numerically, from taking those easier classes, but that would not be a learning advantage and most really bright kids want the toughest classes with "their crowd."</p>
<p>If you want to be prepared for tougher universities, you take the solid sciences and the people at the top of the class generally deserve to be there.</p>
<p>"In addition to the arts, why shouldn't a kid who is a standout in auto mechanics have a shot at being in the top of the class? Weighting grades says that we place more value on certain classes than others, and sends the message that they have more value to the society."</p>
<p>Shennie, i respectfully disagree. There are many awards for the arts, and our school also gives awards for people who do well in internships and vocational training. But we are talking about an ACADEMIC award here. Academic awards often get short shrift (our newspaper reports on sports versus academics by a ratio of about a gazillion to one!). Most select colleges, when figuring the GPA on their own, only include classes from the 5 academic areas.</p>
<p>In other words, add a vocational award if you wish, but don't take away the academic awards, or water them down.</p>
<p>Someone asked above how colleges know who VAl/Sal are - you can usually look up your high school's rules somewhere in their handbook/website. At ours, the final 'figuring' takes place in January, right after midterms, in time for the school to send that notification as part of the mid-year grade report that I think all colleges require. It does mean that the end of senior year GPAs could have meant a different outcome. That's why it's important to read your school's rules. Reading them also often points out the many ways in which it gets crazy - the exceptions or strange requirements. I think it matters only because it MIGHT matter to colleges. I wonder if the system described by Michele Hernandez is still in use? As I remember, it made a BIG difference if you were no. 1 vs. no. 2 in a class.</p>
<p>At our school, we have one valedictorian and one salutatorian. Grades are weighted, with AP and Honors receiving more weight. AP & Honors are weighted the same, however; usually you need to take the Honors course first as a pre-req for AP. Transcripts show rank and GPA -- weighted and unweighted. A few years ago, the val in our district had taken a less rigorous course load; the salutatorian family sued the School Board. All this was done kind of quietly and I do not know the individuals involved. However now our school policy states that the val and sal are those with
the hightest rank/GPA and most rigorous course load. The val and sal are chosen
after the seventh semester and sometime in the spring; I do not recall if this info is forwarded to colleges before they make their RD decisions.</p>