Wellesley or U. of Chicago or Hopkins

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello all -- This is my first posting, but I have spent the past three weeks reading and lurking on this site, wishing that I had been here six months ago. The D -- in spite of being in the top 5% of her class, with an unusual combination of talents and interests and SAT scores above 1400 and 10+ AP courses -- did not get into her first choices. She 'wasted' the E.D. option on an Ivy that she wasn't really crazy about, was deferred and then rejected. She was rejected at the Ivy she really wanted to apply ED to; two very unique, gifted classmates were truly deserving, her teachers felt, and the D would never be admitted ED over them. She made WL at Middlebury, the school she really liked the most, and now we are confronted with the 'on-line' combination of Wellesley, Chicago or Hopkins. The D is very intellectual, academic, and wants to study Romance languages and biochemistry. We lived in Paris for ten years and she attended a French school, so she speaks French as a quasi-maternal language, very good Spanish and Italian. Here are the problems:</p>

<p>Wellesley: (applied because the college counselor made her) doesn't want to go to a single-sex school where the big dance of the year is called the "Dyke Ball"</p>

<p>Chicago: (applied because the college counselor made her) projectile vomiting in the car during the drive back from the admitted students open-house; all the talk about "we are/we are not the nerd school" and "where fun comes to die" and you can't take Junior Year Abroad in Paris if you major in biochemistry even though that is what you want to do and we have a program at the Curie Institute really got to her.</p>

<p>Hopkins: (applied because the college counselor made her) We flew down this week for the open house and got no feel for the school; there were almost no students on campus. Were they in the library, studying for MCATs or doing their research for which the school is known the world over? The D met several students who had also been admitted who were deciding between schools like GW or Trinity. There is nothing wrong with GW or Trinity, but she found that to be depressing. All in all, the D is upset, devastated, and I don't know what advice to offer. She had double AP languages, the most challenging course load in her class, and she feels that she is the only one who made Cum Laude junior year (at her HS) with no schools that she feels happy about to attend. SOS!!!</p>

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<p>As a datum: my D is a Smithie and virtually every Smithie I've talked to at some point says something to the effect of, "Well I never <em>meant</em> to attend a womens college but...."</p>

<p>Wellesley was her #2 choice and for her Smith was indeed a better fit. But there's a lot of "value," academic and otherwise, at the womens colleges at their alumnae are over represented in government, business, and academia to a staggering degree.</p>

<p>Yes, if one attends you need to be, ah, tolerant of diverse lifestyles. But it's not a problem if you're straight and intend to stay that way. A resistance to high doses of PC might be helpful but that's true for numerous non-womens colleges as well. You might want to cruise the Wellesley forum with questions as well.</p>

<p>This message brought to you by Smith Parents for Wellesley, a non-prophet group disorganized under IRS Code 501(c)(3).</p>

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<p>She counds like she is very sad and disappointed. Would a gap year/internship be better than attending any of these schools?</p>

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<p>Well, Andimom would be the expert on this, but here is my take.</p>

<p>Sit down with DD and have a very long heart to heart. Sit down with DD and college counselor and have a very long heart to heart. You and she need to know, realistically, what her chances are of 1) getting into Middlebury ED, and 2) ever getting into the Ivy of choice. The answer may be that she will never get into the Ivy of choice other than pure dumb luck, or that her chances of ED Middlebury might have been quite good, had she gone that route originally.</p>

<p>Take that info with what you have said already about her schools and list her options - she could plan on an extra year at Chicago and still do biochemistry and JYA, or consider that most people change their major a couple of times, so that picking a school based on a planned major now, doesn't usually matter. If the combo of JYA and biochem would work at Hopkins, then perhaps she could go there, but there are a tremendous number of pre-meds, so most of them aren't looking to do those type combos, even though IR is a strong suit of Hopkins as well as science. Definitely pursue waitlist at Midd, nothing to lose.
Finally, if she truly hates all these options, then she can take a gap year and apply again, taking into consideration the college counselor's estimation of her chances. I would only allow my daughter to do this if she is willing to take the gap year by the horns - make a list of 5-6 schools using Middlebury and desired Ivy as templates. These schools should be of very wide selectivities, and should include schools that SHE is sure she should want to attend - I can think of 3-4 right off the top of my head - how about St. Olaf's? Any attachment to NE LACs or Ivies should be squelched (I'm assuming you live in the NE), she should be looking at similarity to Middlebury, NOT location or name.</p>

<p>She should also rapidly come up with ideas about how to spend her gap time fruitfully - a combo of work, travel, and community service is what many do. Then I would consider allowing her to do a gap year, while pursuing the WL at Middlebury, which could work out.</p>

<p>I'm sorry that she is in her state of devastation, I know how hard that can be. But, it sounds as if she went into the process with one set of expectations (1400+ SATs plus 4 languages equals an Ivy) which might work for someone from less represented state, but won't work for someone from a high school where 2 other students were going to be admitted to the same Ivy! It sounds cruel at this point, but reading between the lines, I'm getting a picture of someone who is not well versed in the process, who changed her mind as she went along (perfectly OK, she is only 17), who never had a safety she loved, because she didn't know or couldn't express what she truly wanted out of a school - who now knows what she wants, but can't have it.</p>

<p>This is cold comfort, but if she uses this as a growing, learning experience, it will make a great essay for next year.</p>

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<p>What was her number one choice? List the attributes of that school (besides prestige). Of the three choices she has, which university lines up closest to those attributes? If none are close, then I second the idea of a gap year. In fact, anyone who's projectile vomiting at the idea of going to UChicago, probably needs a year off of school. She sounds very nervous/depressed.</p>

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<p>IMO single-sex does not necessarily have to be a dealbreaker. The following thread is IMO enlightening about Wellesley:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=107048%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=107048&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I don't know if Wellelsley could be right for her or not, but I don't think that the decision should be single-sex=no dice, end of story.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry my post sounds so cold, it is hard to make it softer.
If she decides to do a gap and re-apply, it should be only to colleges that she wants to attend - no one should "make her". BUT, her list should include a more realistic estimation of her chances. Obviously, she did quite well at a number highly selective colleges, so this isn't a classic "I don't have a safety scenario" - she doesn't have a match that she likes!</p>

<p>My ignorant guess is that she was one of thousands at Midd - female, languages, etc. - but would have had a much better shot ED. I think she needs to look at the Ivies as a lottery ticket, rather than which one should I use my ED on? and find some schools where her strengths play to their needs - through geography, selectivity, a school where language is not a big strength (?Williams), or have flexibility in major - chemistry or molecular bio rather than biochem.</p>

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<p>Do we understand correctly that she was rejected at two Ivies and waitlisted at her first choice (Middlebury) and that her only other applications were to schools that she has no interest in whatsoever? And in fact actually seems hostile to at this moment?</p>

<p>Or are there other options?</p>

<p>Assuming not, I would suggest a pow-wow with GC re maximizing her chances of getting off of Middlebury's waitlist. Has GC made a call to see what might help her rise to the top of the wait list? </p>

<p>Then I would suggest that it might be that her disappointment and devastation is coloring her view (at this moment) of the three current possible schools. They are all top top top schools, highly respected, "prestigious" and dream schools for many kids. Might she be able to view one of them in a more rosy light? If that is possible, I think she should head off to that one in August/September and then see if the school doesn't grow on her.</p>

<p>Full disclosure: I am a Wellesley alum (from the Dark Ages when there were many more all women colleges). I truly don't think it is a majority gay/Lesbian school even now, or that this portion of its population dominates the culture in any way. Wellesley has ample opportunity for "coed" education via MIT cross-registration, which I took advantage of liberally even in my day. Wellesley girls socialize extensivly with students at the zillion other colleges in the Boston area. I am not promoting that Wellesley should be her choice; just trying to mitigate what may be a very misguided stereotype perception.</p>

<p>I suggest choosing one of the three schools - if she can possibly see herself going off to one - because I think it could be a great learning experience. That there is not only one "right" or dream school; that many schools can work; that schools can be different than the stereotypes of them. I also think she may learn a lot more about which school would be right for a transfer (if she does, indeed, choose to transfer) once she has spent time at college.</p>

<p>The gap year is certainly an option. If she goes that route, andi's and andison's journey - and radically different set of college applications - would be very valuable role modelling for you and her. But in their case, andison had LITERALLY no acceptances. So I'm not sure it is the best route for your D.</p>

<p>I hope my post is coming across with the care and concern I feel and not with coldness. I'm just thinking that your D's bitter disappointment is clouding her judgement at the moment and that she may be much better able to find happiness at one of her three choices than she currently realizes. I'm also thinking that the college experience will be the best way for her to start viewing schools in a more realistic light.</p>

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<p>"The D is very intellectual, academic, and wants to study Romance languages and biochemistry. We lived in Paris for ten years and she attended a French school, so she speaks French as a quasi-maternal language, very good Spanish and Italian."</p>

<p>Is she visiting Wellesley during admit days?</p>

<p>Well, except for the single gender thing, Wellesley is the obvious first choice. Very strong in the chem department, extraordinary in romance languages, great study abroad options. </p>

<p>You should know that maybe 75% of students at Wellesley and Smith never thought they'd be attending a single gender school, and about 80% of them are happy they did (once they graduate). </p>

<p>Chicago is a fine school, but it's not for everyone, and you've already noted the problems with it for your d., so enough said.</p>

<p>(P.S. If I read through the lines carefully enough, the Ivy your d. was rejected from likely had a higher percentage of gay men attending than there are lesbians at Wellesley or Smith, if you happen to care. I wouldn't.)</p>

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<p>Your daughter has been admitted to and can afford to attend three of the best institutions in the US. Congratutions to you and her - and maybe she will see the positive aspects of the situation at some point.</p>

<p>I agree with the other posters that she would likely be happiest at Wellesley. My son is currently a first year at Chicago and adores it - but as mini has mentioned, it is not for everyone. JH would be fabulous for the bio-chem - but again, it is not for everyone. </p>

<p>A young friend applied all ivy + skidmore (her mom's alma mater) and was accepted at - you guessed it - skidmore. It took a while - cried all the way their in the car - but she came around in a couple of months. She is now in med school - but loved her undergraduate days. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>P.S. I wanted to add that I'd take any of those three over Middlebury for biochemistry in a heartbeat.</p>

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<p>OMG now we have parents complaining about great schools like Wellesley, Chicago and JHU? Give me a break. </p>

<p>
[quote]
The D met several students who had also been admitted who were deciding between schools like GW or Trinity. There is nothing wrong with GW or Trinity, but she found that to be depressing.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sorry, but boy that sounds bad. I think she should take off a year, work, and see the real world. Cripe.</p>

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<p>georgemma, I'm sorry that your daughter is so devastated. I know it is hard to believe, but this, too, will pass. As anyone who frequents these boards will testify, there is NO such thing as guaranteed acceptance to Ivy League schools or to top ranked LACs solely because so many students apply. When acceptance rates are less than 25% (as they are at the Ivies and Middlebury), even hooked students who have SATs "above 1400" and even some with SATs "above 1500" are not going to get in. I don't at all intend to be harsh, but an SAT of <1500 is just not going to get an unhooked student without national recognition in an area accepted to Middlebury or to most of the Ivy League schools. It appears that, once again, this is a case of a student whose expectations were not based on reality. Interestingly, it appears that the guidance counselor's predictions of acceptances for her WERE based in reality...she was accepted to all.</p>

<p>Perhaps she did not get good advice about the elite school admissions process or, perhaps, she did not listen to it. Why any student would waste "the E.D. option on an Ivy that she wasn't really crazy about" is beyond me. Even if she's a full freight payer, "wasting" an ED option on a school she didn't love above all others was not good judgement. For the unhooked student, applying ED does not give as big an admissions boost as it used to.</p>

<p>In fact, she has been accepted to some very fine colleges that many students are gnashing their teeth over that they DIDN'T get in. I have no idea how big the waitlist is at Middlebury or how many students they take off the waitlist each year. You need to know, however, that these elite colleges do NOT rank their waitlist. The only way your daughter would come off the waitlist is if she fills the special need that an accepted student who chooses NOT to go to Middlebury fills. To get an idea of her chances of getting off the waitlist, I suggest she call the admissions office and ask the questions: "How many students are typically on your waitlist? How many students were admitted from the waitlist last year and the previous 3 years?" Then she needs to write a letter to them confirming that Middlebury is her first choice school and telling them that she WILL go there if accepted. Submit new materials (essays, whatever) if this adds to her profile, ask the guidance counselor or a special teacher to make a call or send another recommendation. Then, FORGET about Middlebury and move on.</p>

<p>Others have been advising a gap year with re-application to her first choice schools. Evidence suggests that this is a BAD idea. If you read about andison who was not accepted at ANY of his schools last year (had a list of reaches without any safeties) and was rejected eventually at the two schools that waitlisted him, he took a gap year, accomplished some remarkable things, then composed a list that included mostly schools different from those he previously applied to, but schools which matched his statistics and special offerings more closely. He also reapplied to the Ivies that he wanted to attend previously. He was accepted to all of the new schools on his list with very generous merit $$$. The schools that rejected him before rejected him again. They have a memory like an elephant, it seems.</p>

<p>georgemma, it is unfortunate that your D did not follow the golden rule of college admissions to "Apply to a safety that you LOVE." That aside, she's holding some very fine acceptances to excellent schools. I strongly recommend that she visit all 3 again (or at least the 2 she likes the best) and LOOK for reasons to love them. Choose a school, and then send in her card. She can always apply for a transfer later, but should never hold her breath.</p>

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<p>One should probably not go to UChicago if one isn't committed to the UChicago experience. Many who go there adore it as my S and ohio-mom' S do, but saying it is not for everyone is an understatement. By the way, there is a way to go Paris and major in biochemistry. Take four courses every quarter, and finish some of the core requirements later than most. Also, Harvard offers a full year (3 quarters) of chemistry in an 8 week summer program. Do the program between first & second year (if UChicago will accept the credit, my S is trying to talk them into it as I write this), and that will allow for a schedule that accommodates a junior summer abroad.</p>

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<p>Don't know if you mean me QG ;), but that is NOT what I am suggesting.</p>

<p>A gap year may be an option, but I wouldn't recommend it unless several specific targets are met, which I outlined, and the majority of the apps are aimed at a totally different list. Thinking hard about the schools that she has been admitted to should come first (and I also think Wellesley is a great choice, but I have a daughter for whom that was non-negotiable, so that must just play out as it will). I guess I'm more for the gap, because it seems to me that she just now has a much better grasp of what SHE wants, and her choices, except for maybe Wellesley, aren't much like what she actually wants at all.</p>

<p>We all know that kids will adjust, and probably be happy wherever they end up, but I also wonder if this could be a symptom of some immaturity, or perhaps simple confusion with what American college admissions and college life can be like these days. OP did not say when they had spent 10 years in France. If they were newly arrived back in the States, and at all relying on parents experience with colleges 25 years ago - you could end up making some very wrong assumptions.</p>

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<p>First, I want to say that the UChicago has REALLY CRAPPY junior/admitted students visiting programs. I live on the campus, and they do not portray the school how it truly is. They try to make it fun, and, from my experience (having attended three of them), very impersonal. I made a whole thread about this on CC under "The University of Chicago."</p>

<p>UChicago is a great intellectual school with a tough program and serious students; this is why I wanted to attend there so much, and I am very happy to say that I will do so this fall. But, your daught does sound a little stressed. I second the gap year option. I am currently taking mine, in fact, though I have not stopped studying and am actually doing more of it that I did during my high school years. This extra year has let me persude my new interest (Greek, which I am auditing through the University), and it has let me mature more so I will be more prepared for the rigors of university course work when it starts in the fall.</p>

<p>Hope that helped a little.</p>

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<p>Whatever else, I would not look at a gap year as a strategy to apply to the same schools she got rejected from this year. A time-wasting tantrum that would be.</p>

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<p>My intellectual but very much a procrastinator graduated from Chicago. She spent one quarter as a junior in Geneva as an intern for a woman's rights group. And, she spent first quarter her senior year in France taking the language program in Tours. She graduated on time in four years.
She loved Chicago! And, she is a fun loving girl who had a great time! I think these boards have made too much of the 'where fun goes to die' reputation that Chicago seems to have. For the three recent graduates I know, that has not been the case.
I think a drawback for your daughter maybe in August/September when EVERYONE else leaves for college. The Chicago quarter system has freshman getting there closer to October 1 than September 1! This might be the year to have her spend September in France!
Can your daughter defer her admittance and take a gap year? I don't know how that works? Can she accept and then still apply elsewhere?</p>

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<p>My advice is not to take a gap year, but to go back and see these schools again, if you can, and then pick one of them and make the best of it. Stay on the waitlist for Middlebury, but don't count on getting in. If your daughter truly wants to transfer to Middlebury or elsewhere next year after giving it her best shot, that's not the end of the world, either.</p>

<p>And now I must jump onto the bandwagon of Wellesley defenders! At Wellesley, straight women are not in the minority. The dyke ball is by far not their only social event, and it is attended by everyone, guys and straight women, too! There was a comparably sized gay population there even when I attended (they really weren't the dark ages, were they jmmom ;) ); the only difference now is that there is more acceptance and freedom to express yourself, just as on many campuses. Personally, I think that's a good thing.</p>

<p>There are many intangible benefits to a single sex education, the unlimited number of leadership roles available, the ability to gain confidence expressing oneself in the classroom (and not having to fight to get a word in edgewise), and even the freedom to come down to meals in PJs and no makeup on! </p>

<p>IMO, Wellesley offers one of the finest undergrad educations around. The faculty is excellent and really cares about the students. Most young women I know who have attended recently loved the school. Despite what you may hear on other recent threads, in reality few end up transferring. For some who do, it comes down to a bad attitude about the single sex thing. Again, as jmmom suggests, the school is not isolated, and anyone who makes even a small effort will find the boys.</p>

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<p>On the Hopkins comment: that visiting students had also been accepted to Trinity and GW, what does THAT mean? Hopkins is one of the very top schools in the country and the world, and it cannot be invalidated whatsoever because admittees were accepted to or are considering GW --so what? My son was accepted at Brown and Chicago and rejected outright by Hopkins. (And his SATs were in the 1500s and GPA well over 4.0.) There are many reasons to dislike Hopkins, I am sure, probably some very good ones, but what you have cited (acceptees considering Trinity) is not one of them. That is more like seeking a reason to reject Hopkins. Perhaps your daughter should look at Hopkins again?</p>