<p>At my school, it's essentially required that we waive our rights to see the rec. I'd go with the good letter....</p>
<p>The GC and teachers let my son see his recs.</p>
<p>What I noticed was that one paragraph in each rec really stood out and the rest was usually just filler. </p>
<p>What was most effective was when the teacher shared a personal experience or knowledge that gave further insight into my son's character. Listing my son's ECs without personal knowledge of his participation wasn't effective.</p>
<p>What stood out in all the recs was a theme: my son consistently gave 100% ...at school, at work, in sports, in the community.</p>
<p>My son got in EA.</p>
<p>fencersmother's post points out a problem that adcoms wrestle with: very few recommendations for the type of student who hangs out on CC are going to be anything but positive. Given that 99% of the recs that an admissions officer reads are good ones, they find it hard to tell whether a really glowing rec reflects the student's accomplishments or the teacher's writing ability. That's where the check off boxes become important--they at least ask the teacher to quantify where a student falls in relationship to other students. </p>
<p>My advice to the OP would be to send both recommendations; students send all sorts of supplementary materials that help to give admissions committees a fuller picture of themselves. If you're nervous that you'll be penalized for not following directions in submitting 2 teacher recommendations (I wouldn't worry about it), send a short note to the adcom saying that you feel that having two teachers who know you well write will provide a fuller picture of your abilities and accomplishments.</p>
<p>My DD has a wonderful math tutor who is very fond of her. A couple of years ago, DD asked her for a recommendation for a summer program that DD was applying to. </p>
<p>I saw the recommendation and I was HORRIFIED by it--it was completely flat and terse and just said that DD was well qualified to enter this particular program. Nothing about DD's personality or their friendship or anything at all like that. No little anecdotes about DD's brilliance. Nothing!</p>
<p>I was upset at the time and didn't show the rec to DD and also didn't send it to the GC or the summer program. </p>
<p>Now, on reflection, I realize that is just how this tutor writes. She probably thinks that's how all recommendations are written! </p>
<p>When DD was asking teachers for her college recommendations, the GC mentioned to me that DD should ask Mr. Smith because "he writes a good recommendation letter." Maybe that is the key--maybe applicants should discuss their teachers with their GCs to ask who writes a good recommendation! After all, the GCs are the ones who see all the recommendations.</p>
<p>Apologies to everyone who has read this on other related threads of late. Seems to be a hot topic.</p>
<p>toledo,
A teacher signing the outside of a sealed letter is standard procedure when it comes to recommendations.</p>
<p>DS has not seen his HS teachers', GC's or one of his supp recs. The school pretty well insists on waiving. No big deal at our house. I would hate to see the lawyering and nit-picking that would ensue if parents saw what they considered inadequate letters.</p>
<p>I think what makes a good rec letter is who you ask to write it. DS gave teachers an activities resume, but asked them to talk about him in the classroom. He didn't want a re-hash of awards, and how can a World History teacher comment on science awards, anyway? (Yeah. He won a big award and got to attend a competition. Missed eight days of my class as a result.) DS sent them a brief email about what he had particularly enjoyed in their classes. For World, DS really enjoyed debating with the teacher and having to develop arguments that supported his positions. We suspect his other teacher wrote about an event where DS didn't qualify for a competition, but she was impressed with how he handled the situation. (There's more, but it would be identifying.) DS was not afraid if the teachers had something less-than-perfect to say about him. Last spring, the GC thought he should have a differnt math/science rec, but DS held firm, and he was absolutely right.</p>
<p>DS, DH and I were able to meet with the GC, talk, and provide additional written info to help her in writing her rec. (It's a big public HS, and the GCs don't always know the kids as well as they would like, so they do this for everyone. I think it's a fabulous idea.) </p>
<p>DS's research mentor at a local university did share his letter with DS. For what the guy lacks in writing style and editing skills (and he jokes about this all the time, DS says), the mentor's letter was very powerful. What made it so? It wasn't just "XX learned a great deal with me." It was an assertion backed by specific examples -- "XX came to me having already independently read and digested YYY, the standard upper-division textbook in this field. Therefore I was able to give him readings which I assign to my PhD students, and he was able to present those readings to me so that I knew he understood the material." (These are not actual quotes -- just redacted/modified examples of how the mentor described their relationship. Show, not tell. Just as useful in college essay writing!)</p>
<p>Other advice for good recs: ask the teacher/mentor well in advance. (Our school recommends the end of junior year.) Ask if they'd be WILLING to write a rec. Gauge their enthusiasm and adjust accordingly. Ask how they'd like the materials (in folders, forms in unsealed envelopes, lead time, etc.) Make it easy for them to do a good job. Thank them. Don't kiss their tails. Be active and involved in their classes -- with honest enthusiasm, not just to get the teacher's attention. A teacher who sponsors an activity you are involved in (and who has you in a class) offer a different perspective of you than a teacher who sees you only in the classroom. A teacher who had you both freshman year and junior year may be able to testify to your personal/academic growth, increased level of responsibility, blossoming from nerd to social gadfly (or vice versa), etc.</p>
<p>At some schools, once you are admitted and you enroll, the school may allow you to inspect your files and read letters of recommendation.</p>
<p>I have a question</p>
<p>At my school all recommendations are confidential, no exceptions. On the Common App I checked the box I do not wish to waive the right to see my recommendation; I thought it would be nice to see them in a year. I haven't seen any of my recommendations. Will colleges count it as confidential or what ?</p>
<p>i didn't realize that waiving your rights really matters. i purposely didn't waive my rights. i am really against waiving my rights for anything. i have never seen my recs (im a college freshman now) on purpose even when one teacher gave me the letter to mail out once. i could have read it but i didn't. honestly i don't think it matters. i got into almost all of the schools i applied to anyway. o well.</p>
<p>Fortunately, we were able to see the letters of recommendation. My daughter needed two for a couple of her colleges last year. She got one from an English teacher who had also worked with her extensively in school theater, and the other from the head of her "gifted/talented" magnet program. The English teacher wrote an amazing, very personalized, thoughtful letter. The magnet teacher's was just the opposite. Clearly, she had a template set up on her computer and merely typed in the name of the student in question. In my daughter's case, she forgot to change gender, and referred to her once as a "he." I realize she probably had more than a few recommendations to write, but was it too much to ask that she put just an teeny bit of thought into it? My daughter ended up getting a third recommendation from a different teacher, which was infinitely better.</p>
<p>I was wondering the same thing (why would anyone waive their rights if they didn't have to?)... but now I get it. yeah about trusting the teacher and stuff. well now I HAVE to waive my rights I guess.</p>
<p>I had a question relating to the discussion on "excellent recs."
Which rec would be better (assuming that student X is outstanding)?</p>
<p>Teacher A: Amazing teacher - learning is FUN, very very intelligent, can write outstanding recs, however does not spend much time with students - nevertheless thinks that student X is very good.</p>
<p>Teacher B: Adores the student (thinks X is a demigod), partly because hes never had many good kids, spends lots of time with the student outside of class going over work, however really sucks as a teacher/makes learning boring and tedious and intellectually is not as bright as Teacher A - his writing may not be as good.</p>
<p>Essentially my question boils down to whether adoration or intellect is a better quality to look for in the rec writer. Obviously the most favorable situation would be to have Teacher A love Student X a lot, but if you had to choose one, who would it be? Teacher A who can definitely convey his emotions but that adoration may not be as effusive as Teacher B, who may have trouble writing about that emotion.</p>
<p>Man...I wish I would have known this before. It never crossed my mind that it might make a difference whether I waived my rights or not. I didn't, just because, well, I don't know. I just didn't, I didn't know if I might want to see them when I'm in college or something. But now I wish that I would have, if it means they think I don't trust my teacher or it's not legit.</p>
<p>Echelon32-I'd go with teacher A because "can write outstanding recs".</p>
<p>A truly outstanding reference will be from a well respected teacher and can be one pararaph that says you stand head and shoulders above your peers and gives good reasons.</p>
<p>I chose my rec writers based not only on how well they knew me, but also on how well they write. Often it is the humanities-type teachers that write the best. You can glean a lot about the way they write from comments they write in papers and from any written assessments they make about you. Both showed me their recs (despite my having waived my rights) and I couldn't have asked for better letters. I could really see myself in their letters and they corroborated many things in my applications. I was surprised at their insight and the things they noticed about me. I got into all of my early schools, and I believe their letters helped show the colleges a 3-D person. It is also really important to try to develop relationships with your teachers - that is the only way they will be able to write something meaningful about you.</p>
<p>It isn't just about trust. Sometimes teachers feel more comfortable describing you and your strengths if they know you won't read them. It is just awkward if they write a lot of good things about you that you never noticed and then you read them.</p>
<p>Look- this is CC where students obsess over every little detail of their application. You guys want full control of every single thing that goes in your files at schools so it all comes out glowing for the adcoms. But the thing is that if you CAN waive your right to see the letters, it'll accomplish two things:
1) To convey to the adcoms that you're willing to risk a piece of your application to unknown- that you feel confident that your application can stand almost on its own without the letters. (though it's a different story for graduate schools...:))
2) You trust your teachers 100%. If you can't bring yourself to sign the wavier for that particular teacher, then don't ask that teacher! You can't sign it, you can't trust yourself and your teacher. Simple enough.</p>
<p>Also, good, honest teachers will seriously tell you NO if they cannot truly write better than decent letters. Partly it's that they have other students that s/he can do better job with (and popular teachers tend to have a limited number of students) and partly it's that they feel that you might benefit more from another teacher that you hadn't asked (teachers do talk about you to each other!). Listen to them and don't argue.</p>
<p>ticklemepink is right. There is little point in worrying about this part of the application now. You have to trust that your teachers liked you when they had you, enough to gloss over your flaws in their letters :)</p>
<p>One thing you should do when getting your applications ready is to make sure you're picking the right teachers. Of course, most of your teachers will be able to write positive recommendations for you. But that's not enough. Most recommendations are extremely positive. You should try to get a recommendation that describes your personality characteristics, the way you think and work, and what your passions and strengths are. You should get a recommendation from a teacher who truly knows you and respects you. Meaning it's OK if the teacher knows your flaws. Everyone has weaknesses, and chances are, if a teacher knows you well enough to know all your weaknesses, he or she is close enough to you to know that you're a really good person. And this teacher will be able to write a much stronger and more thorough recommendation of you.</p>
<p>So just because you're the best student in a class does not mean that teacher will give you the best recommendation. For example, I think I've read the same dull, half-page recommendations from a math teacher about his/her "genius student" about 500 times! Clearly the teacher respects the student but there is very little to describe the multifaceted, unique nature of the student in a way that the rest of the application does not. (An 800 math SAT score can tell you that a student is "truly gifted at math.") The role of a truly excellent teacher recommendation is to tell you all about the applicant. The excellent teacher rec doesn't have to name you as the teacher's absolute favorite, perfect student. As long as it gets the message across that you are a passionate, motivated, interesting human being, the job is done.</p>
<p>@ post 56:</p>
<p>or you may read bad stuff about you that you didn't know before.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I would hate to see the lawyering and nit-picking that would ensue if parents saw what they considered inadequate letters.
[/quote]
Agreed! That's a nightmare waiting to happen at our hs.</p>
<p>We're on the third go-round in the admissions cycle, and our kids have always waived their rights to see recs. However, we were very surprised when one of my youngest d's teachers handed her a copy of his rec after her apps were in. He didn't share the "check box" section, and I don't even know if he necessarily completed it. The letter itself was very detailed (and encouraging to this worried mom). He's known to limit the number of recs he'll write. He also asks students to complete a brief form when they request a rec, including such questions as "Why did you choose me to write your recommendation?" and "What specific accomplishments in my class are most significant to you?" He does not ask students which schools they're applying to, so I presume he does not personalize his letters to each individual school. </p>
<p>An odd thing that happened when my second d was applying to schools - one of her recommenders received a letter from a UPitt adcom, thanking her for writing such a detailed rec. That one really surprised us - UPitt's a big school, and I imagine they've seen the full range of recs, good and bad.</p>
<p>Great advice from CountingDown in #45 above!</p>