What are Public Ivies

College Search & Selection
101

<p>tenisghs: School prestige is not always dictated by enrollment yield. I’m sure you do think Cambridge is prestigious in America. But why does Cambridge has a very small proportion of American students? In fact, there are many more American students at St Andrews than there are at Cambridge. I do think U of Michigan is quite prestigious. Prestige-wise, I would rank it in the top 15 in the world. But I don’t need to see many Californians or New Yorkers enrolled there to make it so. </p>

<p>hawkette: I know Berkeley is not all that attractive for many students outside of California. But that does not make Berkeley less prestigious. There aren’t too many people in Canada that apply to MIT. But that does not make MIT less prestigious in Canada. There aren’t too many people that apply to Caltech anywhere in America. But that does not make Caltech less prestigious. </p>

<p>sakky: No; that friend of mine has not been admitted to a single medical school that he has applied to. He is now in Malaysia taking postgrad studies in tropical biology, something that he enjoys doing now.</p>

102

<p>“He went to Caltech and enjoyed the experience. As he freely admits, Caltech is famous for two qualities: excellent research and, frankly, subpar teaching; the Princeton Review has designated Caltech as having some of the worst teaching of any school. Many Caltech students don’t even bother attending lecture at all, figuring that they learn more by just sitting in their rooms reading the book rather than having the lectures only add to the confusion.” </p>

<p>This is just another example where students learn from their peers at the very top schools, which I hear constantly is the single most important thing about elite colleges. They don’t attend class much and learn from their books. I guess thinking that you’re smarter than your professors is a great way to learn.</p>

103

<p>“Prestige-wise, I would rank it in the top 15 in the world. But I don’t need to see many Californians or New Yorkers enrolled there to make it so.”</p>

<p>RML, you will find many Californians and New Yorkers attending schools outside their states. Higher education in those regions is extremely competitive. For example, Michigan is 35% OOS, which Californians and NY-NJ students make up the majority. In several decades, Michigan has established the reputation that it is more OOS-friendly than UC-Berkeley or UCLA. Michigan is also closer to and within the same time zone as New York (2-hour flight). Until recently, the UCs were only 10% OOS. From that perspective, it wasn’t worth applying because the UCs made it clear that they focused their attention on Californians.</p>

104

<p>tenisghs, </p>

<p>Michigan has 35% OOS whilst Berkeley has only 9% OOS. Does that mean Michigan is prestigious and Berkeley is not? Does that make Michigan more prestigious than Berkeley? </p>

<p>Cambridge has 10% international students. That’s substantially lower compared to the American University of Paris which has an almost completely international student body. Does that mean AUP is more prestigious than Cambridge?</p>

<p>

Again, my point was Berkeley’s lack of OOS does not make it less prestigious as an academic institution. It is well-regarded as it is despite its low number of OOS. Berkeley is prestigious because it offers great academics, employs the best faculty and researchers, and is quite able to send graduates to the best and wealthiest companies out there. The same reason why I’m convinced Michigan is quite prestigious despite the never-ending attack it receives from some respectable CC posters.</p>

105

<p>^ You just explained that Berkeley has great graduate programs. </p>

<p>Could you guys define “great academics”</p>

106

<p>Yes; Berkeley has great graduate and postgraduate programs. But the word “academics” is not limited to grad/postgrad education, is it?</p>

<p>And, i do agree that a big part of Berkeley’s great image is due to having great grad/postgrad academics. But then again, the point is, Berkeley is prestigious. The academic people think that it is. The top employers continue to hire Berkeley graduates and pay them highly. And having 9% OOS does not make it less prestigious.</p>

<p>great academics = offers the academic program quite excellently</p>

107

<p>RML,
I don’t know what circles you’re traveling in, but you gotta get out more. UC Berkeley is not a factor for the vast majority of Americans. Outside of the Asian demographic, Americans east of Denver don’t give two hoots about UC Berkeley. It’s a nice school located in the nation’s largest state and that gives it great access to industries that play a large role in that state. Otherwise, it’s hardly on the radar screen. You seem to think it is something special for undergraduate education. For the vast majority of Americans, t’s not.</p>

<p>and also, your explanation </p>

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<p>is this a joke? Quite excellently??? Hahahahahahaha. </p>

<p>If you’re serious in this statement, please tell us how you measure this?</p>

108

<p>hawkette

</p>

<p>Did I ever contest this? I don’t think I did. lol</p>

<p>However, my question to you (which you avoided to answer, btw) was: Would that make Berkeley less prestigious? There are quite a few students that apply to Caltech. Does that make Caltech less / not prestigious? There are a few undergrad int’l students at Camrbidge. Does that make Camrbidge less / not prestigious? </p>

<p>And, based on percentages alone, we can see that the University of Southern California has many more OOS applicants, as well as, OOS enrolled students than Berkeley. Is USC more prestigious than Berkeley outside of California then? </p>

<p>

So you think that the math teaching and research quality, for example, at Berkeley is mediocre? Do you really think that when someone has graduated from econ at Berkeley, he/she did not really receive a quality education in economics? Do you really think that Haas and Engineering at Berkeley are just a joke? Do you really think that it is useless to study optometry or biology or chemistry or Physics or English or Psychology at Berkeley??? You’ve got to be kidding me!</p>

109

<p>“Again, my point was Berkeley’s lack of OOS does not make it less prestigious as an academic institution. It is well-regarded as it is despite its low number of OOS. Berkeley is prestigious because it offers great academics, employs the best faculty and researchers, and is quite able to send graduates to the best and wealthiest companies out there. The same reason why I’m convinced Michigan is quite prestigious despite the never-ending attack it receives from some respectable CC posters.”</p>

<p>RML, I agree that UC-Berkeley is prestigious. However, the average high school applicant in the Midwest and East Coast will not apply there simply because there are local schools that offer similar academic opportunities and cost much less in the long-run (e.g. in-state status, travel costs, etc.). UC-Berkeley also has more influence on the West Coast than other regions in the country.</p>

110

<p>

Of course. Academic prestige is inherently a result of research excellence. This is not a stand-alone Berkeley or “public-ivy” issue as some make it out to be. Sakky has pointed to his brother’s experience at Caltech. Experiences for individual students will vary at all schools. The NAE profs I had all happened to be great/engaging lecturers and made themselves available to ug questions.</p>

111

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<p>Well, I did not disagree with the statement and claim that Berkeley’s applicant pool is generally “regional”. I agree that it is. What I’m saying is - there is nothing wrong with that, or that does not damage Berkeley’s prestige as what hawkette is asserting. It does not matter if quite a few New Yorkers (or from wherever) apply to or enroll in Berkeley. I offered you my alma mater university in England, Cambridge, as example to better illustrate my point. I’m sure you did not apply to Cambridge as Cambridge is, like Berkeley, public and regional (in this case, Euro centered). But does that make Cambridge not prestigious in America because only quite a few Americans apply to Cambridge?</p>

112

<p>

hawkette…</p>

<p>Regardless of whether UC-Berkeley is a good choice for OOS applicants (given the high price, I am inclined to say it is not), that does not decrease its prestige. Prestige, quality, and value are all different quantities.</p>

113

<p>Naw, sorry I don’t agree at all. Prestige is regional and, for undergraduate education, UC Berkeley has limited appeal and highly variable prestige. For graduate programs, it’s clearly more acclaimed (and ain’t funny how they also enroll so many more non-Californians and internationals in accomplishing this???). </p>

<p>To you, living amongst the Chinese who are too uninformed to distinguish undergrad from grad, probably can’t name 10 colleges in America (much less know anything about them), and certainly don’t understand UCB’s true place among American undergraduate options, UC Berkeley has lots of prestige. This opinion is even further reinforced by the fact that you’re married to a UC Berkeley grad. Congrats on that, but it doesn’t raise its profile or its prestige for undergrad education. Sorry……</p>

114

<p>

Not quite true. For many college educated people there, they got to know Cal, MIT or Stanford simply because they used textbooks written by faculty members of those schools, as it was my case at least. Nobody cares much about private LACs since those schools have not contributed anything they need.</p>

115

<p>^ Hawkette, you seem to be one of very few people to hold a big distinction between undergrad and grad “prestige”. People ask where you go/went to school and you answer _________. Rarely do people ask if it was for grad or undergrad and then proceed to change their perception about your education.</p>

116

<p>

Read my post again. I don’t see how you can distinguish between undergraduate and graduate prestige. The educational quality may be different, but the name-brand of the institution remains the same.</p>

117

<p>ewho,
Given that Cal and Stanford are in California, those (along with UCLA) are likely to be on the short list of colleges that Chinese can name. And as the world’s most prominent engineering school, it’s also easy to understand why the Chinese and their great interest/talent in engineering might know that name. That’s 3-4. Uhmmmm, there are a lot of other excellent colleges in the USA, probably 95% of which nearly all Chinese have no clue about.</p>

<p>ucb,
Maybe it’s different in the engineering world. I’m not an engineer. But in most businesses that I am familiar with, people definitely understand the distinction between undergrad and grad. IMO, getting into and thru SBS or HBS has a heckuva lot stronger credentialing effect than just getting thru Stanford or Harvard undergrad. And I would say that’s even more true for a school the size of Berkeley (24,000 undergrads). </p>

<p>noimag,
For me, the name brand of the undergrad has some signaling effect, but no where near to the degree that it does for grad school. This can work both ways. </p>

<p>In the case of Berkeley, I’d assign a higher impact to students I’d meet and interview from its grad programs. The grad programs are among the nation’s best and attract top students and this is broadly known by those looking to recruit from there. For undergrad, it’s no big deal. Lots of folks go to UC Berkeley and, while certainly many are very good, it’s also true that a lot of them are quite unexceptional. </p>

<p>Flip-side arguments can be made about places with less nationally prominent graduate programs. Consider Vanderbilt. It’s a premier undergrad destination with student quality (not research!) on par with the non-HYP Ivies, but its law school and business school are nice, but no big deal when measured on a national scale. Probably top 30-40. Like UCB undergrad, many are very good, but many are not. </p>

<p>Ultimately, employers figure this stuff out and go to where the talent is. To varying degrees, their patterns will evolve as some schools rise and others decline. </p>

<p>With what is going on in California, I’d be worried about any of the UCs. They may have great infrastructure and a huge, captive population from which to draw for undergrad, but the politicians risk a lot of that with their seemingly endless stupidity.</p>

118

<p>Hawkette, of course employers looking for specialized degrees like business and law will make the distinction for your graduate school. My example was in conversation with colleagues, etc. Perhaps it is different in my engineer-focused world than your world.</p>

<p>

If anything, Hawkette, the state budget crisis will make it more difficult for students to attend UC by raising fees and cutting enrollment. It’s funny that this might improve USNWR ranking. In the supposed UC “glory days” of the late 60s - 80s, cost of attendance was much cheaper and acceptance rate much higher. How could a college be that good by letting all those dolts in? :rolleyes:</p>

119

<p>

Thanks, hawkette…It might not be a big deal in your mind but it is an accomplishment of which I happen to be quite proud. And not just because it’s a top notch undergrad engineering school. All Berkeley undergrads can hold their heads high.</p>

120

<p>Why is there even an argument about this? From wikipedia: “Public Ivy is a term coined by Richard Moll in his 1985 book Public Ivies: A Guide to America’s best public undergraduate colleges and universities to refer to universities which “provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price.””</p>

<p>The schools are:
College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
University of Texas at Austin
University of Vermont (Burlington)
University of Virginia (Charlottesville)</p>

<p>Now are these the TOP 8 public unis? no. But are the Ivy League schools the top 8 schools in the country? no. There are other schools inbetween, such as Stanford, UChicago, MIT, Caltech, Duke, etc. Just as Wisconsin, UIUC, are in between these as well.</p>

<p>Yes I realize the list includes all the UCs but its easier to include them into one grouping.</p>