Nearly 40 years ago when I was deciding on a college, with plans to teach, two of our public directional universities were much better known as having the best Education Departments in the state. Much better teacher training and placement than our huge, well regarded flagship. The one I chose placed us in practicum situations within the campus lab school from the beginning of our Ed. classes as freshmen or sophomores.
Not a lot has changed since then. Now, halfway across the country, living in one of the highest ranked public k-12 public school districts, the best odds of getting hired here (in our particular district) are to attend one specific state public directional university because that university has close ties to schools in our county, places most of their student teachers at schools in our county or one of a few other highly ranked area districts. Those student teachers become known quantities and are often hired straight out of student teaching or get picked up as long term subs, which then leads them to full time jobs. Our state flagship is fine, but huge, and along with size comes bureaucracy.
Now, having said that, my oldest stumbled into teaching as a career his last semester of undergrad at our state flagship. And that came about because of a particular, very small, high level English class that gave him experience working with kids in a local low SES high school. His professor in that class has become a mentor, guiding him through a completely alternate pathway towards teaching as a career, since he lacked any Education Major classes. He’s two years out of college, and has gained experience in very challenging urban schools. He is exhausted, but has seen and done more than most teachers in our lovely suburban district will see in their entire careers. (Not Teach for America.) So for him, the large flagship came through in a wonderful way that nobody could have predicted.
For us, the state flagship was not the cheaper option. We are above the financial cut-off for free tuition in our state (but only just.) The private LAC that accepted her across the country costs us the same as what we’d pay for D to live at home an attend the local university. The local university is excellent and highly ranked nationally (though not really the “flagship” university in the system) but because D really wanted a small LAC environment she went to the private school.
Teachers don’t make a lot of money, so whichever school you can graduate with the least debt would be ideal. As someone else pointed out, they don’t pay you more just because you went to Yale over Central State U. If the flagship is too big or impersonal, or too close to home, I’d go to a regional state U, which are also often much cheaper.
OTOH, a teaching degree can sometimes be called an MRS degree these days, so if she wants to meet someone who has a higher income potential, then I suppose that would be one good reason to aim a little higher.
Maybe our experience isn’t the norm, but here in San Diego, we have some amazing community colleges with outstanding professors, a number of them whom have PhDs. My just graduated senior had at least three professors in the past two years (and possibly more) that had PhDs. One did his BS and MS at Stanford. Let me say I’m so glad these men and women want to teach in the local community college system! My kids’ high school experiences were far richer for it. So yay for really smart, excellent teachers who want to work in the local CC district.
I’ll just echo what others have said about why not attend the state flagship: state flagship is very hard to get into here in California, it’s very large, and can be more expensive for some people than some private schools, and it’s certainly not the right fit in terms of majors/environment, etc. for everyone. Neither of my sons applied to the state flagship.
The impact of a master’s degree on getting a teaching job varies by state. In MA, it’s a good thing, and you’re required to have some level of education (one option being a master’s degree) beyond a bachelor degree to get a full professional teaching license. In NC, no one cares because teachers no longer get a salary bump for having a master’s degree.
Our son, who did not go into education, looked at our state flagship. The campus had amazing energy but with over 40,000 students, wwway too big and impersonal. And as gorgeous as much of it was, the dorms were depressing. The university was three hours away, and we could have made it work if overall it was a good fit for him, but it ended up being just one more reason to cross it off his list.
The daughter of a close friend took two years of education classes at community college then transferred to a four year branch of the same state flagship. It was in the city where she knew she wanted to teach. She did her student teaching in that school district, then after getting her bachelor’s, subbed there while studying for the masters. Yes, it was all about networking. She subbed another year after getting the masters, getting passed over a time or two but eventually a position opened up that went to her.
@cmsjmt "OTOH, a teaching degree can sometimes be called an MRS degree these days, so if she wants to meet someone who has a higher income potential, then I suppose that would be one good reason to aim a little higher. "
OUCH. For what it’s worth, I have never, and will never, considered my degree to be a means of snatching up a meal ticket. I happen to find a lot of value in the work I do.
Also, I’m in another state-- NY-- that requires a Master’s. But it’s not required right away, and that’s the distinction I was trying to make.
With teaching jobs in short supply, I would definitely be thinking about what subjects she wants to teach. Good high school math, science, and computer science teachers are still not that common, in my opinion.
In a lot of places, it depends on which science. For example, Biology teachers are always easy to find, since every wanna-be doctor who changed his/her mind has always found it easy to get certified. Even when we’ve needed mid year replacements, we’ve never had a hard time finding a certified Bio teacher.
Physics, Chem and high school math, on the other hand, have always been brutally hard to find, at least around here.
Oh please. This notion went out the window in the 60’s. Plus, are you suggesting one cannot meet a bright, and wonderful partner at any college? If so, please show us the data to support this.
Many of the 20 and 30 somethings we know didn’t meet their significant other in college. At.All.
I didn’t apply to our state flagship because I didn’t like the size…which at the time hovered near 50,000 including all the grad and professional schools. I preferred a smaller public university in a smaller town.
Good post, thumper. I worked as an aide in a school district for 10 years. I know of only one couple, who worked in conjuntion at the school in the music department band/choir, who’d met in college. They had a music teaching career in common and both recently just retired. I don’t think any other teachers had met their spouse that way. It’s a question I like to ask: how did you two meet? Common answers: at another job, went to high school together, fixed up by friends, at a bar. Hey, look, these days, there’s computer dating so that’s a whole new ballgame. Yes, when she was 42 years old, a divorced teacher (parent of a 16 year old) at the school met her current spouse on a dating website, got married and had her second child. Enough of the MRS.
LOL it was just a joke y’all, don’t take it so seriously. And @thumper1 you are absolutely right, good quality people can be found on any campus.
@coolwater One of my favorite books about education is “The Feel Good Curriculum - The Dumbing Down of America’s Kids In The Name of Self-Esteem” by Maureen Stout. In it she discussed the failure of Education Schools to attract the best and brightest. She pointed out, for instance, that at UCLA where she taught, the requirement for entrance into Education school was a lowly 2.1GPA. Basically if you can’t get into any other major, go into education. I think elementary education these days especially attract the least qualified. One of the worst teachers at our local elementary school was a UCLA grad, and one of the best - from a regional state U.
@cmsmt I agree with you about how we select and train our kids’ teachers.
It’s too bad that the states control public education but they don’t have responsibility in training teachers and leave it to individuals.
To improve teaching quality, I think the states need to have rigorous selection standards, manage the teacher training institutions, provide salary and benefits to students, and guarantee jobs for students after graduation. That’s how many countries in the world do.
With regards to good teachers, it’s a hit and miss. Too bad that your kid’s teacher was not good. However, my son’s kindergarten teacher was the best teacher I know. She graduated form UCLA too. There are some good public school teachers out there but we need more of them.
The funny thing is, all those requirements and teacher training is for K-12 teachers. At a community college you do not need a teaching certificate you just need the minimum academic qualifications as established by the accrediting agency for the school. It is usually 18 grad hours in the field or a masters in the field. At least in the states I have taught at. Maybe Cali does require a teaching certificate, I don’t recall, I’ve applied for jobs in Cali but that was many years ago.
But as far as being taught how to be a teacher, adjusts usually get the textbook, a week before the class starts, and some vague guidance on what to cover from the dean or program coordinator. No one really trains CC teachers to be teachers. There is a whole lot of “trial and error” that goes on to get to where you have reasons to believe you are “good.”
Students, nowadays, largely sign up for classes based on what they read on Rate My Professor and what their friends say. One of my teaching friends right now is having trouble getting his classes to make. He gets ripped on RMP and the students just won’t sign up for his class. He needs to improve his teaching skills but, unfortunately, he is a bit stubborn, in denial, and totally protected by the dean. Oh well. I guess if enough of his classes don’t make someone will finally wake up and smell the coffee.
Neither of my DDs attended our flagship U, which is 20 minutes from our house. Why:
DD1 wanted a nursing degree but the level of competition for acceptance to the BSN program at the flagship was intense. There aren’t enough spaces for all the qualified nurse wannabees. DD1 spent a year at our local CC and then transferred to a smallish state U, 3 hours away and has a job offer for ICU nurse, across the street from the flagship.
DD2 wanted a small liberal arts college experience. She applied to the flagship and was accepted into the honors program but opted for a local LAC. It’s been a great experience. She’ll probably go to the flagship for grad school. And in her case, the LAC was significantly less expensive.