What are "smart but lazy" kids supposed to do with their lives?

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi, </p>

<p>I found this site because I was Googling "low grades and high test scores" to see what the lay of the land potentially looked like for my son. There were a number of links to interesting discussions on this site, but all were a year or more old. So I registered with the site to kick off the discussion once more, but perhaps with a somewhat different angle than I have seen explored on those old threads.</p>

<p>Some background: I myself am the underachieving son of two high achievers. My parents were both college professors: my dad was B.A. at Stanford, M.A. at U. of Colorado, Ph.D. at Stanford, while my mom was B.A. at U. of Colorado, M.A. at U. of Washington, and Ph.D. at UNC-Chapel Hill. From a young age, I scored in the 99th percentiles on standardised tests, but I have been for as long as I can remember a procrastinating, disorganized, very non-punctual slacker. I would ace tests in school, but often not hand in homework. I just couldn't seem to consistently motivate myself to do it.</p>

<p>When high school came along, I scored the highest in my school on the PSAT but only went as far as the National Merit Semifinalist category because of shaky grades (an assortment from A to D with only the occasional F). I took the ACT and SAT only once each, junior year and without preparation, and got the highest score possible on everything except the SAT Math section, where I still notched a respectable 760. I did graduate high school by the hair of my chinny chin chin, ranked 216th in my class, but not only were my grades a problem, I also took the minimum possible number of credits allowed. For instance, when I discovered early in my senior year that I didn't need any more math credits, I dropped calculus and took a study hall instead. I was also the only one on the school newspaper to figure out that since it counted as an English credit, I could avoid taking any other English courses senior year.</p>

<p>When it came time for college, I greatly enjoyed learning but was still not good at being a worker bee. A quote I came across while Googling (sorry, don't have the URL handy) had me pegged:</p>

<p>"Studies also reveal that the students with the highest dropout rate are those with high test scores and low grades, making those candidates a dangerous commodity for colleges."</p>

<p>Indeed, I did drop out of college. In fact, I dropped out of several different colleges, and still do not have a degree. And my recent Google-aided research makes it clear that in the two decades since I started college, admissions counsellors have gotten wise to the fact that students like me (and my son, who is entering middle school and showing all the signs of being a chip off the old block, hence the reason for my renewed concern) are "dangerous" to their retention rates.</p>

<p>And yes: I suppose to the diligent and hard working among us, I must sound like a terrible person. But I'm actually really not. I am passionate about political change (and working on campaigns is one time I'm less lazy than usual) to benefit the downtrodden and protect the environment; I am loving and nurturing to my kids and my wife, not to mention my friends; I like puppies and pat them on the head as I go by.</p>

<p>But while I do find happiness in my family and friends and assorted pastimes, I've also felt a lot of stress and unhappiness over the years due to my sort of unwanted position in society, which is something I would dearly love to spare my son. Some of the earlier threads told parents not to worry about their underachieving, high IQ kids, because "they'll go on to be Bill Gates" (or, one supposes, Mark Zuckerberg or even Karl Rove). But that's not what has happened to me. I am content with fairly little, but have too often found myself with even less than that; and though I've always managed to take care of the very basic levels of the Maslow hierarchy without stealing or borrowing, it's not a comfortable feeling to go without health insurance--as I have for over a decade.</p>

<p>So I guess the question is: what to do with students like me, or my son? As I say, I find plenty of evidence that college admissions counselors are increasingly leery of smart/lazy applicants (another money quote: "Unless you have an excuse, very few colleges will accept you because they see a relatively bright person who is very lazy, something they hate."). But this seems rather heartless, as I don't feel like I really can be something other than "lazy" (wish there were a kinder word for it), at least not in a sustained way. Which is to say that I feel like I don't have the psychological/emotional fortitude to be other than what the mainstream calls "lazy", any more than overachievers have the ability to will themselves to ace the SAT/ACT. And I suspect the same is true for my son. So are we just members of a class of people who deserve to be "hated" then?</p>

<p>One might even argue that "hyper-sloth" (combined with extreme tendencies toward procrastination and anti-punctuality) is a form of mental illness--or perhaps a better characterisation would be to see it as comparable to a learning disability. But of course it's not recognised as such; and so--again--I ask: what are we "gifted underachievers" expected to do? Are we then to simply be written off as morally deficient to the rest of society, and no provision made for us? </p>

<p>Yet we do have talents, obviously, if we could be tapped to use them in a way that fits our temperaments. Casting us unceremoniously into the service sector to work grueling, poorly paid jobs to scrape by makes little sense: we shrink like few others from hard work (which truly seems like torture), after all, but those jobs are tougher and at the same time require more work hours to pay the bills. Madness!</p>

<p>While I can truthfully aver that I did begin this post intending for it to be an appeal for advice as to what I might do to help my son avoid the pitfalls I've dealt with, I see that it has evolved into something more like a rant. So be it: I've vented my spleen, and I'm interested in feedback. If good advice is stirred into the mix, all the better.</p>

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<p>Motivation has to come from within. As you have likely learned, it is just about impossible to “make” anyone (including one’s offspring) do anything, especially longer term.</p>

<p>I sense that, for our generation, the world was more forgiving to those unmotivated or uninterested in competing in a dog-eat-dog world. The software industry absorbed many art history and philosophy majors, for example, in a way that no industry is prepared to do so today.</p>

<p>As you (and Maslow) point out, we all have to eat and put a roof over our heads. It will be up to your son to figure out how to do this. It may motivate him to work harder, or maybe he will marry a breadwinner and he himself take care of things on the home front.</p>

<p>What is the basis for your rant? Does society owe us something, especially if we are smart? We all have to make our own way, and I do worry as a parent about my kid being able to find a job to support herself (especially as I really do not want her to move back home, something I’m guessing she has no interest in as well
)</p>

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<p>If you had stuck it out in college you might have been able to find a more fulfilling career. Perhaps you can use your example as a life lesson for your son?</p>

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<p>My oldest D is a carbon copy of you. She had perfect SAT’s, changed her major four times and finally dropped out. I too, had high test scores, but I thought high school was the place where I socialized and played sports. I got with the program later in life, but at 17 I was way too immature to go to college. My transcript is littered with 'W’s etc. My parents should have said, “we think you should wait a year or two
”
My advice? (which my oldest daughter did not take, sadly) After high school have your son attend community college and work full time. It is a maturity issue, and yes, a work ethic issue. A couple of years in the ‘real world’ will give him the necessary maturity.
What breaks my heart is my younger D has a lower IQ, does poorly on tests but works like a dog. She takes every AP offered, and has always dreamed of going to a good college, but her low SAT’s etc. will probably keep her out of any of her dream colleges.</p>

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<p>Forgot to add: Both my daughter and I suspect that we might have a form of ADD-probably somewhat genetic.</p>

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<p>Describes my S to a T. He is a graduating HS sr. High test scores mediocre grades. He was just diagnosed with executive function disorder/ADD. High IQ, but relatively slow processor. He is seing a psychologist on a weekly basis to come up with a strategy to overcome his processing issues. He has only been to see this guy 3X so I don’t know if it is helping or not. Other folks I have talked to have said medication has helped them overcome these issues. S’s doc would like to try other avenues first.</p>

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<p>oh, btw, for years we though my S was a lazy, unmotivated, immature kid. You know the thing, boys mature later than girls. Then we got him diagnosed and I started talking to other folks about this and I was amazed at the number of folks who were diagnosed later in life and found medication helpful.</p>

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<p>My feeling is that being caring and connected and self-aware is at least better than some people who are arrogant or narrow-minded. It may not get you the big bucks or the top awards, but it still can be a valuable way to live.</p>

<p>Both my husband’s family and my own have some super-high achievers and some slackers. The best educated are not necessarily the happiest, and some of the slackers do just fine, but yes, money and education does help one have a more comfortable life with better choices so it’s helpful to find some bit of motivation.</p>

<p>I think one of the most important things you can do for your son is to help him learn to budget his money early. The most heartbreaking thing is to watch a loved one run out of cash and not have the educational means or motivation to get a good job to get themselves out of a hole. That’s when desperation can set in. He doesn’t need to have a high paying job in order to save. I actually have some friends with high incomes who blow through their money and others with low means who save a larger percentage of their income and live simply enough that they don’t have debt. You can help by helping him be realistic about how much he can make with lower education. And if he needs a higher paying job, well, that’s the time to go back to school or get motivated. </p>

<p>Tying love to success can always backfire, so continue to love him even during his down times. Cut him off financially if you must, but don’t ever cut him off emotionally. </p>

<p>You can’t make him get motivated, but look for opportunities to introduce him to things you think might be cool. And maybe go back to school yourself, take some courses or embark on a new career path. He will see that it’s never too late to get your educational act together, and it will probably make you feel better, too!</p>

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<p>First, it is never too late to finish college. So, it’s not as if somebody like you couldn’t do so. Maybe in psychology, where you might actually be able to come up with an answer to this question. Because, if you, as an adult who had this issue, can’t “figure it out,” I really don’t know what to say about how anyone else is going to figure it out. The answer to every “problem” (if it is one is up to you to decide) lies in the problem itself.</p>

<p>As for your son
and yourself, for that matter
I’d agree with the others. You should, at the very least, get yourselves evaluated for ADD. High IQ students frequently go under the radar on this one. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>What an interesting read! I appreciated the candor in your post. I’m curious to know what you (Slackerdad) do for a living to support your family
and are you happy doing it?
I wish you and your family the very best :)</p>

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<p>You have described my academic life and that of my son. Read the book “The Myth of Laziness”, valuable insight. I will tell you that the only time that I was truly engaged in my education was during middle school, when I was thrown into a program that was taught mostly in a foreign language. I was lightyears behind my peers when I started, but two years later I graduated #1 my class and was recognized for having one of the highest scores on the high school entrance exams in the county.</p>

<p>My son, now 24, went to a private prep school from pk through 12th grade. He did very well in elementary school, all As, but in middle school, his grades dropped significantly. I had countless meetings with the dean and his academics advisors and they all told me to give him time to mature. He was the youngest boy in his grade, most were a year+ older than him. I made mistakes back then that I regret now, the first of which was believing that line of bs. The second was not pulling him out of that school when they transferred him out of algebra 1 and a biology in 7th grade, because he was not doing his homework. He was acing all the tests, but getting zeros for homework and notebooks. He also took the SAT that year and scored in the high 600s on the math section, after being kicked out of algebra. I knew that he was bored, as I had been in high school, but I didn’t know what to do with him. In hindsight, I should have taken him to the local college and have him take classes there. At the time, the public college would not take kids until 16. I later learned that a local private college was taking home schooled kids at a much younger age.</p>

<p>Fast forward to high school. My son had near perfect test scores, but graduated with a 2.8 gpa. He went to a state college, dropped classes, failed classes and changed majors 3 times. He is currently in his 7th year in college and will graduate in December with a degree in electrical engineering. He has a very well paying internship this summer, with solid propects for hire in January. Although it was a rough road, there is light at the end of the tunnel. If I had do-over, I would have kept him home, had him go to local college and work until he figured out what he wanted to do with his life.</p>

<p>I also have a daughter, a high school senior, who does not possess the raw intelligence of her older brother. But she is a hard worker and very motivated to succeed in whatever she does. Raised in the same home with the same parents, go figure.</p>

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<p>What are “smart but lazy” kids supposed to do with their lives? </p>

<p>-Change from lazy to hard working then proceed with any goal. Will have to do it anyway at some point in life. Might as well do it ASAP. You know that the earlier you start investing, the more you have at the end if all other conditions are the same. This is the same idea, just a common sense, not a rocket science.</p>

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<p>I confess I don’t quite understand your point. Are you “too good” or “too smart” for a service-sector job? Where do you expect to go in life without signing up for hard work, whether that work is physical or mental in nature?</p>

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<p>
have to add. When kid’s grades go down, talking to anybody at school WILL NOT help. You have a choice. You either let it be or sit down with the kid and make sure that everything is done and done correctly, including all math problems that you yourself do NOT understand. They have textbooks, they do not use them effectively. You yourself find material in textbook, study it, do the problems, get correct results, do not share your work, but explain all that you learn to your kid. Most teachers are NOT capable of doing it, they do not care about specific way that your child learn, you should know it as a parent. Kid is our responsibility, not school’s, we just pay them, we cannot rely on getting something in return. One of my kid was free spirit, but he knew exactly what he wanted to do. I let him slide, seeing that he would spend hours on stuff that he likes. He went on pusuing his goal and was successful, raising his own children who are awesome students. My younger D. is very hard working, but when she did not understand material, she would ask us, her father or me. We never ever said that we do not know and cannot help her. We have helped her with every single question she ever had. We both work full time. Going thru procedure above will take much less time than talking to school and will provide real help. It will also bring you closer to your child.</p>

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<p>Good book on Executive Function Disorder/ADD
Driven To Distraction : Recognizing and Coping with Attention Deficit Disorder from Childhood Through Adulthood
Edward M. Hallowell, John J. Ratey</p>

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<p>Haha, my son maybe a case of smart but lazy too but with a twist. He scores high in all tests coming his way. He went to an elite college and graduated w/ an engineering degree having GPA>3.7 in four years. My expectations were either medical school or graduate school after graduation(his GRE scores were again superior). But no, to my dismay he is content working as a temp making $12/h for almost two years now. My wife and I have been asking him “what is your career plan?” but never gotten a real concrete answer from him. I don’t believe he has ADD since he never misses any homework/assignments, probably just a case of contentment?</p>

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<p>“Tying love to success can always backfire, so continue to love him even during his down times. Cut him off financially if you must, but don’t ever cut him off emotionally”</p>

<p>I take the quote by “AParentalUnit” above to heart. Thank you,</p>

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<p>I get what you are saying, OP. Bottom line on this problem, in my opinion, is to instill work ethic in the kid, which takes years, and get them on ADD drugs, which helps many. Then coach the kid to realize that it is his life, and he gets to decide how he wants to live.</p>

<p>I think some of this underperformance is ADD related. Some of it results from a creative nature. I have clear memories of sitting in 5th grade watching my classmates grind out yet another busywork worksheet. Our bad lazy teacher used these constantly, grading one set while we did another. While they worked, I sat staring wondering why they did it, why we couldn’t do something more interesting, what’s the weather like outside, etc. I wasn’t doing the worksheet and wasn’t getting good grades, but the unquestioning workers were. They were getting the good grades, the praise. The poor performers were getting no respect and no encouragement.</p>

<p>We have a lot of underachievers in my family, people who are obviously much smarter than their coworkers, people who could have achieved much more and contributed at a much higher leve. It makes me mad, and over the years I’ve wondered what to do about it. I could have easily gone this underachieving route myself, except that I really, really wanted to get out of the family home and prove myself.</p>

<p>When I saw that my daughter was uneven in performance - a natural at some things but not others - I decided to really push her to do the work she didn’t want to do, do the assignments that were hard for her. I hoped that eventually she would learn to push herself. I am talking about a push that lasted throughout grade, middle and high school to do things most smart kids don’t have to work hard on. I emphasized to her that she was lots smarter than the teachers thought she was, but she had to prove that to them.</p>

<p>So far it seems to have worked out with regard to school work, for which I am grateful. It helps that she now has a goal in mind that absolutely requires her to take certain classes that she’s otherwise rather not take. She’s worked hard to do well in those. She now appears to be over the hump, where the sort of classes she’s not a natural at are behind her.</p>

<p>If - a big if - you can find a specialized program in college that meets the needs of these kids, e.g. electrical engineering as a previous poster mentioned, and if - another big if - you can convince them to work towards the goal of getting into that kind of program, you might be able to lick this problem and help your kid achieve his true potential.</p>

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<p>Two of the really smart lazy kids I know - one is tutoring SATs and one is freelance writing.
Both in their early 20s.</p>

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<p>Treetopleaf–I very much sympathize with your account, but my question is–why is the above viewpoint characterized as ADD, and why should it be treated with drugs?</p>

<p>It seems to me a valid, thoughtful response to a ridiculous situation (even if that kind of situation is common), and the idea that we, or our kids, should take drugs to deal better with drudgery is troubling to me.</p>

<p>I’d be willing to bet that a lot of what society has chosen to define as ADD is actually really a very human response to anti-human situations.</p>

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