<p>This video is very applicable to this thread:</p>
<p><a href=“Horrible Histories Leonardo Da Vinci - YouTube”>Horrible Histories Leonardo Da Vinci - YouTube;
<p>Cobrat–Loved it and posted it immediately on my D’s facebook page. She commented, “I’ll watch it later.”</p>
<p>Sorry cranky, I obviously have been AWOL from this board for quite some time. I actually just happened upon it again when Googling something; then it occurred to me to go back and look at my previous posts. So I didn’t mean to ignore you. Now of course it has been sometime since you posted that, so I don’t know if you’ll see this, but I’ll update anyway.</p>
<p>My son is doing much better in school. We actually intervened but without a diagnosis. For a a while, we had a counselor at school checking to make sure he had everything he needed to bring home; he hated that, so it’s motivated him to do it on his own when we gave him a chance to do it without the training wheels. The other things we did were to implement a carrot and stick approach. We told him that if his report card GPA ranges between a 3.0 and 3.3, there will be no penalty and no reward. Below a 3.0, he loses privileges like screen time, and begins to gets direct oversight of his work, like our emailing with teachers and checking each day to make sure he is caught up. Above a 3.3, he gets financial rewards on a logarithmic scale (for example, 3.4 is $1; 3.7 is $16; 4.0 is $49). Ever since we did that, he has ranged between a 3.4 and a 3.9–so, pretty good. The one blip was getting a C one grade period in math, even though he is a very advanced student in that subject (we had neglected to make a single C carry any more penalty than two B’s, which I think was a mistake; but we stuck to our agreement, and he still got something like a 3.4 that grade period). He course corrected though, and is getting all A’s and B’s again.</p>
<p>He still has habits that concern me though, as I recognize myself in them; and even if I didn’t, they are obviously not the best scholarly practices. For instance: his papers tend to be stuffed randomly into textbooks and become very crinkled on the outer portions that are not pressed between the pages; he often forgets to bring books home that he needs to work on assignments; and he never seems to have paper, or generally the materials he needs, even though we always buy everything each August. He also procrastinates every assignment or project until the last possible moment. But we made a deal with him that as long as he produces the grades at the end of the process, we would not micromanage his methods.</p>
<p>Until recently, I had thought his next sibling, our 10-year-old fifth-grade daughter, might be immune to any of these “slacker” characteristics. She too is in the gifted program at school and every report card she brings home has every single section (and there are a lot of them at that age) pegged all the way to the maximum “exceeding” level; the only teacher comment is something like “fantastic student, love having her in class”. </p>
<p>But the other day, we went to see her fifth-grade music program in which they still play recorders like when I was in school. The program they handed out listed each of the students, and had a series of letters next to their names. Each one started with W but then most kids had a variable number of other letters next to them–as many as a dozen or even more. This, it was explained, represented their “belts” as in martial arts. My daughter’s name only had the solitary “W” next to it, which was true of fewer than one in five kids, I would say. (I joked privately to my wife that it was like the list of kids in the high school yearbook with no photo.)</p>
<p>After the concert, I asked my daughter to play a few notes for me so I could hear her by herself. She did so and I thought she had a nice tone for someone with only a white belt so I asked her how kids got different amounts of belts. She said they were achieved by taking tests. I noted that from the quality of her tone, I suspected she might have been able to pass at least a couple more of those tests. She said “sure, but you’re only <em>required</em> to take one test.” I asked why she hadn’t wanted to take more tests, and she said she would rather have the free time to read.</p>
<p>I did not push the point beyond that. It seems like as long as teachers make getting an A contingent on doing a certain amount of work, she will do the work. But she does, after all, have at least some level of my and my son’s personality, in terms of not wanting to do anything “extra” or “above and beyond”. I don’t know what that will mean in high school and college, but in the workforce I think it could be a serious disadvantage when she is competing against others who also have high IQs but have more motivation and drive. She may need to look for some kind of occupation where what is required is spelled out clearly and there is no ambiguous level of extra initiative required. But I just don’t know that there are a lot of employers who are looking for white collar employees who do not take initiative or go the extra mile; so she will probably need to hide that.</p>
<p>Cranky, your son sounds a lot like I was. At the very least, you should help him guard against racking up a lot of debt without a degree like I did; and additionally, not to make it the possibly even worse mistake of racking up a large number of college credits with a very mediocre GPA. At one point a few years ago, I went back to school for a couple of semesters as a nontraditional student and was toying with the idea of trying to go to grad school or maybe law school. But two semesters of grades in the 3.7 or 3.8 range only nudged my 2.61 up to something like a 2.62. I have so much academic inertia built up (or maybe “mass” would be the better metaphor), that I can’t ever get it up even to a 3.0.</p>
<p>I suspect that your son will not be able to succeed in college unless he has you or some sort of life coach basically managing him on a very close level. I have at times had visions of doing that for my son, although more recent evidence seems to be that he is able to do okay without such direct supervision if that possibility is hanging over him and he has incentives. But it is an open question as to how useful it truly would be to get someone through to a college degree that way if they then will take that same disorganised, slothful personality into the workforce. I really have no answer for that, as I have such a spotty work history myself that I still have not accumulated enough work credits to qualify for Social Security; and the job I held longest was for eight bucks an hour, staying up all night watching TV at a group home (and, I should say in fairness, occasionally dealing with extreme behaviour problems).</p>
<p>Slacker Dad, You and your son sound like my nephew. His PSAT earned him semi-finalist and had among the top SAT scores in his wealthy public high school in silicone valley. Teachers loved him as he would participate with interesting comments and discussion and he did well on tests. However, he couldn’t be bothered handing in work. His grades were about a C average but he did go to a USC school on the merits of his test scores. So it can be done. I understand it required some micro managing by his GF to get him through college. However, now he is graduated, there is some floundering and I don’t think he has a job after graduating for 1 1/2 years. He would however, be a wonderful dad and really needs to find a woman, like his mom, who had a great career in finance. He is also a good artist and probably should have pursued a degree in art or graphic design.</p>
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<p>Ah, but maybe in a class where she was required to read only five books to get an A, she would read twenty! She may not see the sense in using her time to get any commendations for recorder playing. I don’t think she’s a slacker; she’s just using some good (at least in her mind) time management skills. :)</p>
<p>I recently hired a new grad who had 2300+ SAT, but had below 3.0 GPA. Normally I wouldn’t even have bothered, but he was one of the brightest person I’ve met. The first 3 months was a struggle for him. He would do very little for his assigned task and get 90% done, but would spend a lot of his time “exploring” what’s of interest to him. He was late to work few times because he believed he could continue to stay up late and still make it to work. As his senior manager, I’ve called him in to lay down the rules, “Only work on what’s required, and do it at 100%. Do R&D during your own time.”</p>
<p>This employee told me that he was always smarter than other students and he had to do very little to just pass. He suffered a great deal when he was in college. He had to work from academic probation to 3.0. Now at work, he is competing with colleagues who went to Cal Tech, Yale, Princeton, Cornell with 3.5+ GPA. He is lagging in time management and ability to focus. I like this kid, so I am trying to do what his parents should have done for him. If I am not successful then it would be a shame.</p>
<p>That’s my concern with my nephew Old Fort. You can get him to college, get him through, but then what? My dad told me at one time while he was in HS that it was “unreasonable” for teachers to ask him to do outside work because he “obviously knew the information.” I argued that he needs to learn work ethic for now and for the future. He is absolutely capable, does not have ADHD, is bright and engaging, but continues to lack work ethic. His parents left him alone in HS. SIL was at work at 4:30A and brother didn’t know how to parent someone without self motivation. What to do now?</p>
<p>ETA: Slacker dad’s son I suspect will do fine as his dad, unlike my over-achieving brother and sister-in-law knows that he needs to create external motivators. Good job slacker dad. Personally, I would need a counselor to help me along. But if you have any ideas of what to do with my nephew, let me know!</p>
<p>You ask college graduates for SAT scores?</p>
<p>I don’t ask for it. I see a lot of applicants put their SAT scores on their resume, especially if their GPA is not up to par. To be frank, I don’t think I would have agreed to interview him if I didn’t see his SAT scores. Yes, if an applicant doesn’t list GPA, I would ask for it, and if it is below what I would like to see then I would ask why. The fact he graduated from my kids’ school also gave him few extra points.</p>
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<p>In certain fields, this is standard practice. (One of my kids is currently working in consulting, which is one of those fields.)</p>
<p>It’s funny - culturally in my industry that would be a cringeworthy faux pas. A senior manager of mine continually asked me and my colleagues what our GMAT scores were. (Keep in mind all of us were attending b school at NU which at the time was rated number 1.) We had to tell him it was crass.</p>
<p>You told a SENIOR manager what that it was crass for the industry in which he was a SENIOR manager and you were a JUNIOR subordinate???</p>
<p>oldfort - I’ve had employees like that. Another approach could be to find out what he is interested in and see if you can pivot his responsibilities to match the things he is interested in putting extra effort into. You might find you end up getting 60 hours per week out of someone that was giving you 30 before.</p>
<p>SlackerDad, I <em>really</em> appreciate your posting on this topic. I have been that “college girlfriend” that GTAlum mentioned, and now I’m that parent (I certainly can’t say that I didn’t see it coming). </p>
<p>So that brings me to oldfort’s comment:
<quote>Now at work, he is competing with colleagues who went to Cal Tech, Yale, Princeton, Cornell with 3.5+ GPA. He is lagging in time management and ability to focus. I like this kid, so I am trying to do what his parents should have done for him.</quote></p>
<p>I’m trying as a parent to figure out what to do. One child probably needs meds (in part), we’re working on that. Another child lacks intrinsic motivation and resists extrinsic motivation. Might be worth a try.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, what kind of college works better for kids like these? A big college where there might be support resources, or a small college where professors might care and the kid can’t be anonymous?</p>
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<p>Interesting. To most HR/hiring managers I’ve had as colleagues or relatives who did hiring, they wouldn’t have cared about the SAT’s of a job applicant unless he/she was still in HS or in some cases his/her first year in college. </p>
<p>Beyond that, they’re mainly interested in undergrad GPA, prior working experience, sometimes references from past employers, ECs, and other relevant life experiences.</p>
<p>Not to mention a high SAT score paired with a mediocre/average undergrad GPA would be considered a red flag of “smart, but lazy”*. A type most of my previous employers and relatives who did hiring would rather avoid hiring unless said employee eliminates the lazy part within the first few months of being hired. </p>
<p>Last bit is based on my observations of seeing fresh/recent college grads being canned within the first 3 months of the 6 month probation period because my group’s immediate supervisor and those above him have no tolerance for slacking…especially on team projects.</p>
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<li>Some exceptions made for colleges/majors with reputations for grading harshly.</li>
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<p>Some people just have less energy overall for others or are less goal-oriented. Medical problems and/or depression may impact this</p>
<p>Some people have different affinities and abilities for different kinds of work, and this determines their capacities for different lines of work.</p>
<p>They said Michael Jordan was the lazy one in the family, but obviously not in the context of basketball. Usain Bolt couldn’t hack it in the 400 m because it is a painful race, but he was well-suited for the 100 m.</p>
<p>The same goes for other lines of work.</p>
<p>Crowlady, my nephew’s family and he himself feel that a small private would have been much better than a large USC. One reason is that there are not support resources for such a kid. Nephew is like your kid who lacks intrinsic motivation and resists extrinsic motivation, so he would not seek out resources. Nor is anyone going to seek him out. If they did, what are they going to do for him? </p>
<p>If there was an ADHD diagnosis, there are some resources at a large school, but again, you have to have the motivation to seek them out.</p>
<p>I agree, SAT scores seems to be a strange measure for hiring. I would never ask or inquire o such a thing. I think I need to send DD to Oldfort and tell DS to stay away!</p>
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<p>It depends on the field. For some schools and some majors with major grade inflation, GPA doesn’t tell you much about the intelligence or work ethic of the person. Ivy league schools often have grade inflation (and some of this is concentrated in particular majors), so the only indicator of intelligence is that they got in the school. But you can’t always use the school name either, because this is confounded by the fact that some people get in for non-academic reasons. Maybe they got in because they are smart, or maybe it was because they bred prizewinning llamas. </p>
<p>If the person doesn’t have relevant internships and you don’t have a need for llamas, the SAT can be used as a basic check of intelligence.</p>
<p>I can see why someone would use an SAT score if they didn’t have anything else to prove the applicant’s competence, but I frown upon using an SAT score for weeding out job applicants when there are better ways of determining whether an applicant is fit for your company.</p>
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No person can do everything to the highest level all the time. To me, that’s the sign of a well-adjusted personality to do what is required in what you don’t enjoy (or won’t be a career), and to really develop a skill in what you enjoy.</p>