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<p>Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I agree, Skyhook. My former BIL is like that. Extremely smart one semester attendee of very selective U. Self-taught computer expert. Once had a very demanding job, the kind where they’d track him down whereever he was. Now mans a little used help desk at a quiet state agency. He says he doesn’t want to work very much or very hard. He lives modestly but it doesn’t seem to bother him.</p>
<p>No apology necessary, Missypie. Re your son: I suspect he works very very hard to accomplish what he does. You and he should both be proud, and you are a wonderful, loving mother. There’s nothing at all wrong with being a grocery store checker, or an anonymous bureaucrat. </p>
<p>We each have one life. Love one another and try to be happy. I believe this.</p>
<p>Great message, Skyhook. I know my S is one of the nicest, kindest people I’ve ever known. Perhaps the smartest, too. But the latter is not the most important thing about him.</p>
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<p>Agree.
As someone who has been frustrated (in my recent roles in education) with slacker high school boys, there are a couple of things I notice — even among those with NO ADD or similar clinical issues:</p>
<p>(1) If Dad’s not a role model with regard to work ethic himself (or if he’s not around, as with single-Mom households/very absent fathers), it will be extremely difficult to get him motivated. Females don’t do it, and I can be tough. But I agree with CalAlum, direct counseling from Dad on What Not To Do can help.</p>
<p>(2) The male psyche needs concrete, realistic goals that he can visualize and relate to. Very often (IME and in the related experience of some Dads on CC), homework & classwork is not seen as directly or even indirectly related to a future the boy can envision, that he can relate to internally. </p>
<p>Once a young man decides he’s excited about becoming ___________ (a near term or a long term goal), then he becomes signed on. If that doesn’t happen in or shortly after high school, sometimes that young man has to take menial jobs until he becomes so disgusted with his few options and limited lifestyle, that internal motivation takes over – to get a trade, a degree, etc.</p>
<p>I have difficulty with any implication (don’t know if the OP means this or not, or this is not about college admissions and just life coaching), for the notion that society needs to cater to, appreciate, the slacker. Laziness is not a virtue in my book – either for the educated or the uneducated. (Plenty of educated people underperform as well – cheating society of the advantages & genes bestowed upoin them.)</p>
<p>To clarify, I wasn’t suggesting that the OP or his son necessarily have ADHD. My experience is just one instance of a “smart underachiever” (whatever the cause!) actively working toward self-improvement, recognizing that my future self-sufficiency depends on it. Not counting on my parents to support me financially (my college education is funded by loans, work-study, and some more loans) has contributed to that mindset, no doubt.</p>
<p>epiphany–
I agree with lots of what you have said about helping disadvantaged young men (particularly) be able to envision a future and their role in it. Even in middle school, I think it would be good if more teachers talked about careers in the course of their lessons. I spend time in classrooms, and some teachers mention only college as a future choice. As you say, a trade is an honorable future and should also be on the table in these discussions.</p>
<p>No, slackers should not be glorified (although I don’t think that was the OP’s point). And I agree that we each should “give back” of our advantages and talents. However, while the brain surgeon certainly gives back of his/her skills and talent, the person who shovels his elderly neighbor’s snow or fights for social justice also gives back. Just my opinion.</p>
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<p>They work for the government. Seriously.</p>
<p>Government work usually offers less demanding, less stressful, more secure career opportunities with regular hours, defined tasks and evaluation criteria as compared to their private sector counterparts. There are plenty of very smart government employees who just do not want to work all that hard for whatever reason, including that they might be lazy. Smart, lazy people need well-defined job parameters, and government jobs can fill that bill. The government benefits from having brilliant people around, too.</p>
<p>This is a very interesting thread.</p>
<p>First, OP, get tested to find out if you have an executive function disorder or ADHD, and if so, identify (and implement) some strategies to deal more effectively with it. (Provide the same kind of testing and support services for your son.)</p>
<p>Second, OP, I get the impression you are not happy with your job and how things have turned out with regard to financial and job satisfaction aspects of your life. If that is the case, model for your son the behavior that would have made (and will make) a difference in your own education and career. It’s not too late. Start taking classes. Get excited and passionate about the work you do, or find a job that inspires you to work hard.</p>
<p>Finally, talk to your son about the things you regret, about things you wish you had done differently. Make him aware of those early decisions’ negative impacts on your future options, employability, and happiness. Make sure your son realizes that he WILL have to work at something during his life. The better he does in school, the more options he will have as far as what types of jobs he works at. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
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<p>I doubt that anyone hates an amiable bright slacker. There are many people who trade money for leisure in a conscious way, acknowledging that leisure has its price in less income. Everyone does what they have to do to get the life they want. It’s when that person wants to mooch off harder working people that resentment arises. Why is it “society’s” job to make provision for people who don’t like work? And why does every distaste or aversion or weakness have to be pathologized as a “disability” requiring treatment or sympathy? This growing tendency just devalues the amount of available sympathy for the truly unfortunate who cannot work, who cannot care for themselves.</p>
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<p>I am on a committee that is trying to improve career education in our high school. One of the things I have brought up is that our overworked GCs know nothing about trade schools or other non-college options. I know parents who have asked the GC if this pr that trade school is reputable and the GCs have no idea. I’m trying to assemble a team of parents and community volunteers to give guidance in that area.</p>
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<p>Only because, for some kids, ADD drugs will help make boring situations more tolerable. Making the situation more tolerable will make school a better experience for them and make obtaining an appropriate education more likely for them.</p>
<p>The completion of school, whether high school, trade school or college, is a requirement for most jobs, even government jobs 
. Without education credentials, people are at the mercy of the low end of the job market. I don’t see it as optimal for a highly intelligent person to work for a boss having a fraction of their intelligence who can intimidate and lord it over them. If we can get more of these people appropriately educated, then they can obtain more challenging jobs. If they don’t like the ‘better’ job then they can always go drive a truck or whatever.</p>
<p>And by the way, there are plenty of truck drivers in my extended family, including the cousin who got fired while in the hospital recovering from injuries obtained during an accident that two separate witnesses said was not his fault. Too bad - you’re fired. That unfair treatment is more typical of low education jobs than high ones. I think truck driving is an honorable way to earn a living, but some of those guys/gals could be doing more with their brains, including my underachiever brother who was not treated for ADD and not validated in early years by a successful school experience.</p>
<p>what caught my eye about this post was the abundance of sentences using the word “I” in fact, by casual count these 12 paragraphs include only 3 sentences mentioning the “son” so this is about the op still troubled by lack of fulfillment too much or too little of something, but who can say what - maybe ask your son.</p>
<p>I think many of these “lazy” kids end up running businesses. They need constant stimulation.</p>
<p>A friend of mine is married to a smart guy who doesn’t have a BA, but he does have an MA. The story of how it happened is rather amusing. Basically he dropped out of college and was working with a non-profit that helped get low-cost housing built. As time went on his role became less hands on and he realized he would have to bite the bullet and get a degree if he wanted to progress. He talked to the college (I think The New School in NYC) and they looked at his experience and said why don’t you just go straight into our master’s program. So he managed to bypass all the Gen Ed stuff and just concentrate on what he wanted to. I suspect he’s probably ADD and possibly had some LDs. At least his kids have those issues. He also seems to need a large dose of outdoor time and is an avid biker (the kind without a motor.)</p>
<p>I also think there’s nothing wrong with getting a 9 to 5 job that pays the bills where you can come home and use your brain for your hobbies.</p>
<p>I know smart garbage men, smart fire fighters, smart pest control owners, smart contractors. There are plenty of jobs for people who didn’t go to or didn’t enjoy college.</p>
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<p>For me, newly diagnosed and finishing my first week of meds, the most striking difference is how quiet it is. It’s like somebody dialed down all the extraneous noise in my head that kept me from thinking in a straight line. On them, I am more inclined to get things done (and thus seem outwardly less “lazy”), because achieving and maintaining that degree of focus is no longer so exhausting. I can’t even tell you what a difference it’s made, just in terms of pure brain function.</p>
<p>Again, not to say meds are always the answer or that ADHD is necessarily the problem here, but for me they were absolutely the right decision.</p>
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<p>My son has described his brain as “jittery.”</p>
<p>I will say that the “amiable but lazy husband” is a character that has been featured over the years in literature and film:</p>
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<p>Lyra—that makes sense absolutely in your case. My caveat in TTL’s account was that it didn’t sound like a kid being distracted; it sounded like a kid being aware of the numbing boringness inherent in the way the class was being taught. I think drugs may be the right thing for someone with the “noise” in his/her head like you describe, but drugs to make the boring tolerable sound like narcotics to me.</p>
<p>Wow, what an amazing response! Thanks to all, including those who responded more skeptically or adversarially (I don’t take offense easily, and relish a dialectic approach to truth-seeking). I’m going to attempt to respond to a number of comments and questions (though due to the huge number of responses, I’m going to have to skip quite a few that I’d ordinarily respond to in a shorter thread).</p>
<p>First, a couple from the “adversarial” front:</p>
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<p>::smacks self in forehead:: That’s it! Why didn’t I ever think of that?!? Easy-peasy. ;-)</p>
<p>In all seriousness, though, I firmly believe that this is akin to an extroverted person telling an introvert to “be more outgoing”. Or for a person who never has trouble staying at an optimal weight to tell someone who struggles constantly with their weight to simply “stop eating so much”. Or for that matter, like Bob Newhart’s therapist on MADTV, telling someone with any kind of emotional or psychological issues to [just</a> stop it](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE"]just”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE). IOW, much easier said than done.</p>
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<p>It’s definitely not about being “too good”. I have a great respect for people who work hard in difficult, low paying, low status jobs. In fact, I probably have more respect for them than most people do, both because of my progressive political views (I believe all workers should be paid a living wage) and because I feel like I can’t keep up with them, not over the long haul. It’s not “too smart” either; Charles Bukowski was brilliant but seemed to enjoy staying in blue collar jobs, and I’ve known more quotidian versions of this personality type as well.</p>
<p>I suppose it’s pretty hard to explain if you’re not inside my head. The best I can do is to say that when I see someone who works three blue collar or service sector jobs (often for barely over minimum wage and little or no benefits) I am awestruck by the fact that they can manage to do it day after day, in the same way many of you might find it hard to comprehend the way Mexican migrant workers seem to have little problem working sixteen hour days in the hot sun (and I of course find that incomprehensible squared). It just seems so…hard. That’s the best I can do. If it’s a fundamental moral fault, it seems pretty deeply hardwired in, which then of course raises the question of whether something can truly be a moral fault if it is so intrinsic to our nature and we don’t mean to be malicious toward anyone.</p>
<p>Okay, that’s a good start; I’ll send this one out there while I plug away at responding to some of the other posts. (See, at least I have a work ethic when it comes to participating in the thread I started!)</p>
<p>My feeling is there is nothing at all the matter with SlackerDad, but there is something wrong with the rest of us and our culture of achieve, achieve, achieve. Yes, and I’m Asian. lol SlackerDad, I would encourage your offspring to be great humans by being humanitarian. I know there’s little money in that, but somehow people get by and really, that’s all we need. I don’t advocate neglecting your financial needs to the point of being homeless, but I do think that being devoted to social causes and helping those in need shows a very special kind of advancement if you will. You obviously, by your upbringing, learned that material wealth was not enough. Nothing wrong with that.</p>
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<p>The barista at a busy Starbucks. I am in awe of those folks!</p>