<p>Just because someone is a good test taker doesn’t mean they are academically adept, because being academically adept is a wider skill set than just test taking. </p>
<p>It is all about finding a passion. You must find a passion that drives you to <em>want</em> to excel and <em>overcome</em> the inevitable failures. Sometimes the passion is not directly related to the activity. For example, your passion may be to support your family in the best way you can. You may have to satisfy that passion by working a crappy job for decades. You have to draw your satisfaction by attaining the goal of supporting your family rather than getting the satisfaction directly from your work. </p>
<p>I’m going to say something blasphemous for this website: college really doesn’t mean a whole lot in the big scheme of things. It is a foot in the door in a lot of careers, and that is about it. I know people who have risen to great success without any degree at all, but they have done it by combining passion with work ethic. The first is largely intrinsic but the second is largely learned. Whether you have a degree and where it is from is important in a very, very minute subsection of life, but that subsection is vastly overrepresented on this website. </p>
<p>I fully support the concept of being an academic superstar and playing the academic game, and in that game degrees and pedigrees matter, but it is only one game out of a million in life. </p>
<p>I make these statements having lived and seen every angle of this. I have brilliant relatives who are completely happy just scraping by doing something they love. I have average relatives who are superstars at what they do. I have brilliant relatives who are miserable because they are doing high end jobs out of obligation when they would rather be sailing. I have average relatives who are just scraping by, and who wish they had put more effort into education. </p>
<p>My son had a 35 on the ACT and GPA so low he couldn’t get into a state school. He started working right out of high school while attending CC, and now has dropped out of school and is working full time at something he loves and at which he is extremely talented. He is doing great, enjoying life, and has a bright future ahead of him. I have a lot of friends who are envious, because they have kids who mailed in four or five years of effort at expensive schools, and now have boomeranged and are living in the basement. Again, it is all about passion and work ethic. If your passion and work ethic are academia, congratulations. If not, don’t force it, move on to where your passion lies. </p>
<p>I like a John Mellencamp song called “Minutes To Memories”. Go look it up. Here is the chorus:</p>
<p>Days turn to minutes
And minutes to memories
Life sweeps away the dreams
That we have planned
You are young and you are the future
So suck it up and tough it out
And be the best you can</p>
<p>I’m wondering how a family with two able bodied young parents has children who qualify for Medicaid. Unless there is something else going on here that the OP hasn’t mentioned, I would say this qualifies as “sponging off others.” The OP needs to suck it up and get a job. Or two.</p>
<p>I’ve been sitting here trying to analyze just why I find this thread, and indeed the notion of a slacker dad, so disturbing. I can see that the OP loves his family, is articulate and insightful, and seems to be struggling with a problem that is at least partially biological. But I’m unsympathetic anyway. What’s wrong with me?</p>
<p>I’m unsympathetic because I’m not fulfilled in my job, and my husband isn’t fulfilled in his (a job he trained 10 years post-college to be able to do). We get up and go into work every day – and sometimes it’s pretty soul-deadening - not because we’re happy worker bees and we can, but because of our responsibilities to our children, and even to society – to be able to pay for our medical care, retirement, our children’s educations. How truly wonderful it would be if society valued what we have to offer enough to re-order itself and provide positive reinforcement throughout the working day. But society doesn’t exist to re-order itself to accommodate individual needs. </p>
<p>I completely agree with oldfort about the responsibilities of parenthood. We don’t owe children designer clothes, fancy vacations or houses, or even college educations at elite schools. But we owe them our best efforts – even when we’re profoundly unhappy or uncomfortable or unfulfilled. And though I certainly support the idea of health insurance for the children of parents who can’t provide it for them, and I’m glad the OP’s kids have it, Medicaid isn’t very good health insurance. And it’s undeniably a hugely expensive program for all of us. </p>
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This made me think of my favorite Stephen Crane poem (since we’re quoting stuff :)):</p>
<p>A man said to the universe:
“Sir, exist!”
“However,” replied the universe,
“The fact has not created in me
“A sense of obligation.” </p>
<p>Substitute “society” for “the universe” and I think this is your situation, OP. As much as it might benefit society to accommodate you and people like you to take advantage of what you have to offer, it won’t happen. Not saying life should be this way – just saying it is. What “smart but lazy” kids are supposed to do with their lives is work to make something of them, even when it’s difficult - just like everyone else.</p>
<p>Earlier in this thread folks were championing all the hard workers in service sector jobs. Minimum wage in Texas is $7.25 an hour. If you can manage to get 40 hours a week (most likely by combining two part time jobs), 52 weeks a year, that comes to the annual income of $15,080 per year. Last year, my family health insurance premium (with a pretty high deductible) was $9,900 - that doesn’t include dental or vision. Let’s say you double that with two people working at minimum wage…that would be $30,160; can a family really pay a full third of their income for health insurance?</p>
<p>Amen. And frankly, if you told me to choose one of two employees – one smarter, but with little work ethic versus one not as innately intelligent but a hard worker – I’d choose the second, hands down.</p>
<p>I don’t know why we are comparing the OP to people with real neurological disabilities such as missypie’s son. There is a huge difference to me between someone who has real neurological issues making it difficult for them to do X, and someone who just wants to be entertained all day long in his / her job and simply doesn’t want to do the necessary grunt work that is part of life. </p>
<p>And I agree with oldfort … while I personally do believe there should be universal health insurance (a whole other topic), your kids have Medicaid precisely because the rest of us just got up, went to work, and did our thing – even when it wasn’t always the mostest fun or we would have rather stayed in bed or gone to the park. I would be embarrassed to be able-bodied and receive government assistance – I would do whatever it took, work 2 jobs, etc. You aren’t in this situation because you have a neurological impairment. You just seem to have a sense of grandiosity that your intelligence means you should exempt yourself from having to work and (gasp) having to do things you might not enjoy.</p>
<p>One of the biggest markers of character for me, fwiw, is whether someone is willing to get his / her hands dirty. I’m the senior vp of my company; my business partner is president. If we’re producing for a client and the copy machines go down, guess what? We sit there and we bind reports, make copies, whatever. We’re not too good or too proud. My husband is a physician and if one of his exam rooms needs cleaning and no one’s around, guess what? He grabs a mop and does it. I have plenty of sympathy for people like missypie’s son and CF"s son, who have documented neurological difficulties. Just don’t wanna engage? That’s a whole different story.</p>
<p>I introduced the comparison because lots of these super smart people with ADD and executive function disorder have historically been called “smart but lazy” and “slackers.” When a colllege looks at the transcipt of a kid with a 2200 SAT and a C+ average, why wouldn’t they assume the kid was a slacker? There is no note that said that the homework was completed every night but was rarely turned in. There is no note to say that once the ADD meds wear off, it takes 3 hours to do 15 minutes of homework. </p>
<p>I also think that a lot of adults have EFD and don’t know it. They may have ADD and not know it. They may feel terrible about themselves for never being able to focus, never being able to get organized.</p>
<p>OP-- Have you been evaluated for dysthemia by a psychiatrist…not a social worker or psychologist, but a psychiatrist? Have you had a work up by a physician to determine if your thyroid and adrenals are working correctly?</p>
<p>I would suggest you “start” with these, if you were honestly asking for an opinion.</p>
<p>Thank you frazzled. You have expressed my feelings and my opinions so well that I expect you are my twin sister, separated at birth!</p>
<p>It would be wonderful if everyone loved their job and could translate their passion into dollars. Believe me, I would love it if every work day was joyous, fulfilling, and intellectually stimulating. Actually, I USED to have a job like that… but it was downsized. Now I have a job I hate. It’s unfulfilling. Sometimes it’s even demeaning. (My boss is a lunatic and he screams. A lot.) Honestly - I have an advanced degree, I was Phi Beta Kappa in college, NM scholar in high school, all that great hoo-hah, and THIS is what I’m doing with my time? Really?</p>
<p>And yet, as frazzled said, I go to work every day because I have bills to pay (including college tuition), and because in some cheesy old-fashioned way I think it’s part of what adults do. You do your best to support your family, you save for retirement and college, you produce something, even if that something isn’t the bright shiny what’s-it you once thought you’d be doing/producing. And of course, I’m working feverishly on my exit plan, but the key word there is “working.”</p>
<p>Some of my favorite stories are those of hard-working people who work 2 or 3 jobs at a time to support their families. Sometimes these are people of limited means; sometimes they’re immigrants who may have had profesional jobs before coming to this country. I love hearing about their hard work and how it pays off for them and their families. Maybe that makes me more of a worker drone than a butterfly. If so, so be it. </p>
<p>I agree with you, too, pizzagirl. Often, life is about working hard in difficult circumstances.</p>
<p>For a couple of summers during college I worked in a hospital kitchen. (Talk about a terrible job.) This was when a lot of Vietnamese “boat people” were arriving in the US. One of the janitors at the hospital had been a physician in Vietnam.</p>
<p>Didn’t read the whole post–but the word that stuck out was LAZY. Not sure if it applies to you or your son in the strictest sense but it is a serious problem. We have all heard about how C students run the world. They never say “lazy C students”. You might seek counseling for you and your son if you are both truly lacking in motivation. They might be able to help you see things in a new way.</p>
<p>A favorite quote around my house (maybe Dr. Phil, lol) is “The difference between winners and losers is that winners do the things that losers don’t want to.”</p>
<p>Had a friend in college whose dad was also a janitor. He came from the Philippines with a degree in engineering. His children were all VERY successful.</p>
<p>OP: you might be interested in some of the writings by Thomas Armstrong, whom I “discovered” right about the time my DS was being diagnosed with Asperger’s (made more difficult since at the time, Asperger’s was not an official diagnosis or part of the DSM) and who has since become one of my favorite authors on learning differences. Many of earlier writings focus on the education of students with ADHD or other learning differences (“In Their Own Way”, “7 Kinds of Smart”), in large part by using educational models based on Howard Gardner’s theory of multiple intelligences. You appear to share many of his views (as do I). Here is a link I recently found to an excerpt from his recent book, “Neurodiversity: Discovering the Extraordinary Gifts of Autism, ADHD, Dyslexia, and Other Brain Differences”: </p>
<p>His web site includes this nutshell version of the key points of his book (and discussed in the link above):</p>
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<p>If any of the posts on the possible relationship between “lazy” underachieving individuals and ADD/ADHD or other LDs strike a chord with you at all, I do encourage you to be evaluated - not for the purpose of using a label as a crutch or an excuse, but rather, as an explanation. And perhaps to put you on a path towards further self discovery and growth.</p>
<p>Whoa–I really don’t accept that premise. Even just in politics, I do think I’ve contributed. I would like to contribute more, certainly; but “nothing” is far stronger than I’d accept.</p>
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<p>Nate Silver of 538–great blog. I first laid out my theory on the causes of the Great Depression and the Great Recession in comments on one of his posts. I did start a blog, in fact, and it had a promising start…but then withered on the vine as I just lost all momentum somehow (yes, a recurring theme).</p>
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<p>I’ve looked into it, and although it would only take me as I said a couple semesters to get a generic bachelor’s degree online (and probably about the same if I went to a bricks and mortar school and got my degree in either history, French, or disaster management, the three majors I almost finished), it would at least in Missouri take quite a while to get certified as a teacher as there are tons of pedagogy classes required in addition to the content courses.</p>
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<p>ADad, you seem to have a particular knack for probing questions (and I don’t mean that snarkily, honestly). I’m guessing that you’re a counselor or shrink or something along those lines? Anyway, to answer your questions:</p>
<p>–Yes, I play tennis pretty seriously and do try to win (when I’m against someone of equal or greater ability, who is also competitive: my wife loves to hit the ball and is good at it but hates to keep score).</p>
<p>–I want to complete my degree about 20% for intrinsic reward (“yay, I finally did it”) and 80% for more extrinsic reasons. I know it grieves my mother that I have never finished, and it would make her very happy if I finally did. My high achieving wife would be happy/relieved if I finished (although she is a kind person and tries to play this down). And I would be less embarrassed socially if I could respond to small talk by casually mentioning a degree from Mizzou instead of making everyone uncomfortable by having to report that I am a dropout (I don’t want to lie about it). If I could go on to graduate school, that would be something I’d be interested in and would be a strong reason for getting my bachelor’s, but my GPA is too low and I have too many credits “in the bank” to raise it higher than maybe a 2.9 even if I got nothing but A’s the rest of the way.</p>
<p>Now, can you tell me what my answers mean? ;-)</p>
<p>CaptDunsel, I find it hard to picture you as lazy–finishing law school and then working in special ed? I was a substitute teacher for a while and I was often called to sub for special ed classrooms. That is a lot of work, even without doing the planning and the immense amounts of paperwork! I salute you for what you are doing, though (btw, in case I haven’t been clear, I’m most grateful that not everyone is like me as I know that would be highly problematic). And congrats on your son getting into Yale! I actually applied there, believe it or not (yes, that’s embarrassing to admit that I somehow thought I had a chance to get in).</p>
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<p>You all are really starting to convince me! I am becoming more and more convinced that I erred in initially dismissing it out of hand–it’s definitely something I should at least explore. I don’t suppose there’s some kind of online test a person can take, much like the autism spectrum test that was found experimentally to have diagnostic validity? (I took that one btw and landed squarely in the middle of the “neurotypical” range.)</p>
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<p>Maybe it’s not in other areas where, for instance, there are multiple hospitals and a Medicaid card gets you sent to the crappy one. But where I live, there is only one hospital that everyone uses, rich or poor, and both my daughters were born there and received very good care after being born via c-section, the surgery performed by the most respected and skilled obstetric surgeon in the region. Similarly, my kids’ pediatrician is the only one in the area I would want for them regardless of what health plan I had. Of course, I’m damned either way: if my kids are getting substandard health care, that’s bad, while if they get good health care, it’s unfair that “other people” are paying for it, right? Well, guess what: if any of you have children in public school, the same argument could be made (and often is) by any libertarian type who does not have school age children or who sends them to private school.</p>
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<p>So, I’m simply not a good person then? Just wanted to clarify, pin you down on that.</p>
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<p>You seem to me to be contradicting yourself. In other industrialised countries that do have universal health insurance, no one specifically is on Medicaid (or everyone is, depending on how you look at it). You think it should be universal (which in the real world means state-guaranteed); but when it’s not, you point fingers accusingly at people whose children (not themselves, just their children) have state-guaranteed health care. Huh?</p>
<p>Furthermore, I find it odd that so many people are characterising me as though I have never worked, never paid taxes, etc. If that were true, and I was still somehow making ends meet (however narrowly), I’d probably be fairly psyched (though perhaps I’d feel a bit guilty). I think you have missed the point that I am a taxpayer, that I’ve in fact worked at a myriad of low paying jobs, most of which I’ve hated. And the jobs I’ve spent the most time at are ones most people would consider “contributing to society”: substitute teaching and caring for the disabled. My point was not to gloat about how I don’t have to work and I can just be carefree all day (not sure how anyone derived that from my posts); but that I don’t want my son to have to spend years, as I have, gritting his teeth and forcing himself to work low paying service sector jobs.</p>
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<p>I was honestly asking for an opinion; and as I’ve noted, I have done a 180 since starting this thread on the subject of ADD and Ritalin. However, I don’t think dysthemia fits. I am better than the average person, I think, at getting enjoyment from life when I’m doing things I want to do (tennis, cycling, cooking, socialising, playing with my kids, watching independent and foreign films, philosophising). It’s only when I have to go to work and do crap I hate doing in order to get a paycheck (or, for that matter, when I have to clean the bathroom or something) that I get strong aversive feelings. But even then, the feelings aren’t of hopelessness or lack of self worth, just a very strong version of “do I haaaftaaaaa?” (accompanied by severe procrastination) which I know sounds pretty bad to most people but I’m just trying to be as honest as I can.</p>
<p>In any event, I can’t afford to have these kinds of workups done until I have health insurance, but I will keep them in mind for when that occurs.</p>
<p>Scansmom, I really found the stuff you posted fascinating. I have long believed strongly in Gardner’s “multiple intelligences” theory (even though I could be said to have a vested interest in preserving the older and more limited notion of IQ, which manifests itself in tests like the SAT). “Neurodiversity” makes a lot of sense to me, as does the idea that the need for society and the individual to adapt to each other is a two way street.</p>
<p>And I learned a new word today: “drapetomania” (reading further about this on Wikipedia was illuminating as well). Good grief!</p>
<p>So, on the one hand we have Missypie’s son and mine, students who are bright but have problems with motivation, with organization-- in short, they have problems with executive function, which is why both our sons are diagnosed with executive function disorder.</p>
<p>And on the other hand, we have people who are older, like me and the OP, who have exactly the same kinds of issues, but who wouldn’t have been diagnosed with EFD because when we were growing up the diagnosis wasn’t recognized. So we were called “lazy,” and constantly criticized for it. Smug jerks on this board assure us that we can stop having our “character flaws” just by the exercise of willpower-- willpower that they themselves never have to summon up, because they don’t have our issues. </p>
<p>But look-- if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it’s a duck. And if it looks like executive function disorder and it acts like executive function disorder, it’s executive function disorder, and it can’t be made to go away by a wave of the mythical willpower wand. Does willpower cure faulty dopamine regulation? No, it doesn’t. Sometimes, stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall make a big difference-- does it surprise you willpower a$$&%#@s that a chemical cures a character flaw?</p>
<p>Do you smug jerks also go around telling depressed people to buck up? Do you tell people with fevers to just chill out? Do you tell people with Parkinsons to concentrate and stop those funny movements? There are treatments that help people with executive function disorders, sometimes, but being told they have character flaws is not one such treatment. So shut your damn traps if you don’t know what you’re talking about.</p>
<p>I’d imagine they think it, even if they don’t say it. </p>
<p>I posted the Newhart “just stop it” [url="<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE"]video[/url">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYLMTvxOaeE"]video[/url</a>] earlier, I think; but it deserves a mention again as it very nicely illustrates what you’re talking about. What I think is especially interesting about this is that it is somewhat ambiguous (it’s not blatantly clear that the therapist is a jerk and the patient is more sympathetic; it’s possible to see it the other way) and thus functions almost as a Rorschach test. People who like to simplistically spout the “just stop being lazy” advice probably will watch this and say “finally, a therapist I can relate with, who doesn’t sit there and coddle these simpering idiots!” Whereas you and I might agree that some patients in therapy are too quick to wallow in their conditions, but they nevertheless have real issues that can’t be dispelled simply by willing them away (or being told to do so).</p>