<p>There is nothing wrong with any job that makes anyone happy. When someone asks what the best business schools are, or the best places to prepare for jobs in business, my assumption is they want the most options possible, to keep every door open that is possible for them to walk through.</p>
<p>99 percent of business majors will never work for an ibank or management consulting firm. But like it or not, these jobs remain the most selective ‘business’ jobs sought by college grads. The OP may or may not want to seek these jobs but if you read his OP he was asking about undergrad business programs vs. ivy league schools, thus he sounds like an ambitious person who will want to leave every door open.</p>
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<p>If you’re a kid as your name implies, you have no clue whether you’ll be happy as a small business owner anymore than a kid who has never worked in an ibank knows whether he will be happy working for one.</p>
<p>Of all of the internships my kids have had, more have helped them figure out what they don’t want to do than what they do want to do. It’s all good. At this point it’s all about positioning yourself for the greatest number of options. </p>
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<p>All of the top college grads banging down our doors don’t seem to have heard this news. Sometimes things are slow getting to NY from Ohio. Can you post this on more forums so I can stop answering PMs asking what they should do until the hiring starts up again?</p>
<p>I would bet that there are way more NYU and Columbia grads in WS than there are Stanford grads. I would also bet that there are way more Chicago and Northwestern grads in Chicago than there are UPenn or Cornell grads. There are way more Berkeley and Stanford grads in California than there are Harvard or Yale grads. And, even in California, I would bet that there are more USC and UCLA alumni than Berkeley/Stanford alumni in SoCal. And, there are more Berkeley/Stanford alumni in NorCal than there are USC/UCLA alumni. That’s just what it is.</p>
<p>According to the Vault’s --and it was very clear as it’s accessible through the net–that McKinsey streamlined their list of CORE schools for this year – from more than 10 last year to just seven this year. These seven special schools for McKinsey which they call CORE schools are: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, Wharton and Michigan-Ross. Again, it was clear that Michigan-Ross was oen of the only 7 core schools for McKinsey this year. You can check on this for yourself if you doubted me. </p>
<p>Now, if you think McKinsey loves Dartmouth/Brown/Duke grads, for example, instead of Michigan-Ross’ grads, why then did they include Ross as their CORE schools instead of those elite privates? It doesn’t make any sense at all, does it? So, was McKinsey lying? Was McKinsey maligning the people by including Ross in their list of CORE schools when, in fact, they don’t really like Ross grads as much as they do grads of elite privates? Please help me understand what you and hmom5 are trying to say here because I really have a hard time understanding why McKinsey included Ross as their CORE school and not Duke, Brown or Columbia instead. </p>
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<p>Businessweek ranked Berkeley-Haas second best when it comes to employment success rate for the second consecutive years. Haas wouldn’t be achieving that feat if their grads aren’t that sought-after. In fact, on average, Haas grads are one of the highest earners in the nation. Again, check the Businessweek data so you would know that I’m just being factual. </p>
<p>Now, as to your claim or doubts that Haas grads couldn’t get employed as an FO in “big name” companies, here’s a rundown of where Haas grads eventually ended up last year.</p>
<p>Accenture Analyst<br>
Accenture Business Analyst<br>
Accenture entry level analyst<br>
Allied Architecture and Design Business Analyst<br>
Another Planet Entertainment –<br>
Apple Computer Inc Finance Analyst<br>
Bain and Company Associate consultant<br>
Banc of America Securities Global & Corporate Investment Banking<br>
Banc of America Securities Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Bank of America Analyst<br>
BDO Seidman LLP Assurance Associate<br>
BDO Seidman LLP Audit Associate<br>
Bear Stearns and Company Inc Analyst<br>
BearingPoint Inc Consultant<br>
Blackstone Group Analyst<br>
ChevronTexaco Financial Development Program<br>
Cisco Systems Inc Financial Analyst<br>
Cisco Systems Inc Loan Officer<br>
Citigroup Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Citigroup Investment Banking Financial Analyst<br>
Clorox Company Accountant<br>
Clorox Company Staff Accountant<br>
Cornerstone Research Analyst<br>
Cowen & Company, LLC Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Cowen and Company Analyst<br>
Cypress Semiconductor Product Manager<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Analyst<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Associate<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Audit Assistant<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Audit Associate<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Audit Assurance<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Audit Staff<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Audit-Services Staff<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Auditor<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Consultant<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Dispute Associate<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Staff Accountant<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Staff Auditor<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP Tax Consultant<br>
Deloitte and Touche LLP –<br>
Deloitte Consulting Business Analyst<br>
Deloitte Consulting Business Technology Analyst<br>
Deloitte Consulting Human Capital Analyst<br>
Deloitte Consulting Systems Analyst<br>
Deutsche Bank Analyst<br>
Dodge & Cox Trading and Research Assistant<br>
Electrosonic Design Consultant Associate<br>
Ernst and Young LLP Assurance Associate<br>
Ernst and Young LLP Core Audit Staff 1<br>
Ernst and Young LLP Tax Consultant<br>
Eureka Therapeutics, Inc. Business Development Associate<br>
Fisher Investments Inc Investment Associate<br>
FTI Consulting Consultant<br>
Gap Inc Retail Management Trainee<br>
Goldman, Sachs and Company Analyst<br>
Goldman, Sachs and Company Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Google Inc Associate Financial Analyst<br>
Google Inc Associate Product Marketing Manager<br>
Google Inc Financial Analyst<br>
Google Inc Global Communications and Public Relations Associate<br>
Google Inc Human Resources Associate<br>
Google Inc –<br>
Harris Williams and Co Analyst<br>
Hillstone Restaurant Group Assistant Kitchen Manager<br>
Hitachi Consultant<br>
Huron Consulting Group Analyst<br>
IBM Corp Financial Analyst<br>
IBM Corp IT Specialist<br>
Intuit Inc Finance and Operations Associate<br>
IWA International Inc. Junior Product Manager<br>
Johnson and Johnson Financial Analyst<br>
JPMorgan Chase Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Keefe, Bruyette and Woods Investment Banking Analyst<br>
KKR Financial Associate<br>
KKR Financial Investment Associate<br>
KPMG Advisory Associate<br>
KPMG Associate<br>
KPMG Associate Auditor<br>
KPMG Audit<br>
KPMG Audit Associate<br>
KPMG Auditor<br>
KPMG External Auditing Associate<br>
KPMG Forensic Accountant<br>
KPMG Tax Associate<br>
Lehman Brothers Analyst<br>
Lehman Brothers Financial Analyst<br>
Lehman Brothers Fixed Income Analyst<br>
Macias, Gini and Company LLP Staff Auditor<br>
McKinsey and Company Business Analyst<br>
Mercer Human Resource Consulting Analyst<br>
Merrill Lynch and Company Inc Analyst<br>
Microsoft Analyst<br>
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Analyst<br>
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Morgan Stanley Dean Witter Sales and Trading Analyst<br>
National Economics Research Associates Research Associate<br>
Navigant Consulting Inc Consultant<br>
Nextance Inc Research Associate<br>
Odenberg, Ullakko, Muranishi and Co –<br>
Pacific Growth Equities Equity Research Associate<br>
Patio Concepts General Manager<br>
PFM Group Consultant<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Advisory Associate<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Associate<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Assurance Associate<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Audit Associate<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Dispute Analysis Associate<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP First Year Auditor<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Staff Auditor<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP System Process Assurance Analyst<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Systems and Process Assurance<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Systems and Process Assurance<br>
PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP Tax Associate<br>
Prudential Capital Group Analyst<br>
Rothstein Kass, LLP Auditor<br>
Savvian Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Seiler and Company Accountant<br>
Self-Employed Publisher<br>
Self-Employed Venture Capitalist<br>
Self-Employed –<br>
Simon Kucher & Partners Consultant<br>
Symphony Asset Management Trade Operations Specialist<br>
Teach for America Corps Member (Teacher)<br>
The Boston Consulting Group Associate<br>
Tiburon Strategic Advisors Research Manager<br>
Towers Perrin Associate Consultant<br>
UBS Investment Bank Analyst<br>
UBS Warburg Analyst<br>
UBS Warburg Financial Advisor Associate<br>
UBS Warburg Investment Banking Analyst<br>
Wells Fargo Bank Analyst<br>
Wells Fargo Bank Asset Manager<br>
Wells Fargo Bank Customer Analysis<br>
Wells Fargo Bank Financial Analyst<br>
Wells Fargo Bank Marketing Program Associate<br>
Yahoo! Inc Financial Analyst<br>
ZS Associates Business Associate<br>
– Analyst </p>
<p>and there were some who went to grad school:</p>
<p>Graduate Study
Field Degree School<br>
Inorganic Chemistry PhD Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
Law JD(Law) Loyola Marymount University<br>
Law JD(Law) University of California-Hastings College of Law<br>
Law JD(Law) –<br>
Mechanical Engineering Masters University of California-Berkeley<br>
Medicine (MD) MD Cornell University Medical College<br>
– JD(Law) –<br>
– JD(Law) –<br>
– Masters Harvard University</p>
<p>Ignore these dic heads arguing about stupid stuff. Listen kid. When you are selecting schools, it is not derived from what rank the school is but rather what it can offer. </p>
<p>One of the big things you have to look at schools is the program itself. NYU is finance oriented. BU is a management school. MIT and Carnigie Mellon are very math based. etc.</p>
<p>Another thing you have to look at is LOCATION. Hass, Ross, Stern are all good schools. one is near San Fran, one is near Detroit and another is in NYC. obviously if you want to work in the west coast, you would go to Hass. Just due to logistics, most recruiters will be from the area. and since most alumni work there too, you have easier chance getting hired out west. Same for Stern and the east coast situation. plus about stern is you can intern at banks during fall and spring. However if a Hass person wants to come east or a sternie wants to go west, getting a job wouldn’t be impossible, just a a tad harder than their own turf. </p>
<p>Look at some honor colleges too. For example university of texas mccombs and Boston College have very impressive placement. Indiana university Bloomington’s kelley has a investment banking workshop. kids in that also have a very impressive placement record.</p>
<p>"Now, as to your claim or doubts that Haas grads couldn’t get employed as an FO in “big name” companies, here’s a rundown of where Haas grads eventually ended up last year.
"</p>
<p>This may seem like proof to you, but it isn’t. To take the one I know something about,“investment banking” positions have different meaning, internally, depending on what department/role the individual is placed in. It would take someone from the inside, like hmom5, to distinguish the differences in the nature of the actual placements. It makes less difference at the analyst level, but still there is a difference between placement in mergers vs. retail equity sales support, etc.that these broad job titles do not necessarily capture. with numerous nuances in between.</p>
<p>Also not listed is the proportion of applicants from the school who attained these posiitions, vs. the proportion of applicants from, say, Dartmouth who did likewise.</p>
<p>monydad, in short, you are not convinced --and you don’t believe–that Haas, Ross and Stern grads couldn’t get employed as an investment banker or management consultant?</p>
<p>In short, I would not be dismissive of hmom5’s viewpoint, with respect to the specific slice of the world she knows about, given her inside perspective.</p>
<p>Beyond that, I have no opinion. I have worked in NYC and the Midwest and have never personally (knowingly) had a Berkeley undergrad in any of my departments, save for one who was hired as an MBA. And no department I worked in recruited there, so far as I know. But I cannot generalize beyond that.</p>
<p>People here were alleging that hmom5 does not know of what she speaks, my point was simply that, for her slice of the workplace, I’ve reason to believe that she probably does, actually. That was my main point.</p>
<p>Well, fair enough. But let me tell her that I’ve heard many people say different things. In Silicon Valley, for example, Haas grads are favored than grads of those schools she’s fighting for. Does that make Duke, Dartmouth and the like bad schools? No. </p>
<p>IB and MC are huge. She also missed to integrate with in her assessment. She believes that if you’re not in WS, you’re not counted. What a twisted thought is that!</p>
<p>I didn’t say Berkeley grads are highly visible in NYC. Why would Berkeley grads be flocking to NYC when there are equally great opportunities for them waiting right at their own backyard? </p>
<p>My point is, Haas, Ross, Sloan and Stern can provide opportunities as much as the lower ivies do. It does not make them inferior when pitted against those from the lower ivies or Duke and the like. Look at the salary scale of Haas, Ross, Sloan & Stern grads. It’s higher than those of top privates.</p>
<p>I’m interested in working in the New York City metropolitan area or any other part of the Eastern Seaboard, maybe the midwest. I suppose that I’d be most interested in taking part in a business program with more of a focus on management. I seriously, seriously doubt I will want to go to UC Berkeley or Stanford, or even Michigan. I don’t want to go to NYU (for personal reasons). What are the best schools for someone in my position? Right now I’m assuming Wharton is at the top. What comes right after it?</p>
<p>And two more questions:</p>
<p>Notre Dame’s Mendoza school is highly rated, but doesn’t seem to get too many mentions here. I know that despite its location the school has very nice representation throughout the Northeast…but it is it a top choice?</p>
<p>And do the service academies have any semblance of a business program or, at the very least, a respectable economics major?</p>
<p>MIT-Sloan (if you can get into Sloan)
UVa-McIntire
Cornell
Georgetown-McDonough
Washington-Olin
CMU-Tepper
UNC at Chapel Hill (Kenan-Flagler)</p>
<p>But, if your goal in to join in IB/MC someday, going to HYPSM would much better serve your purpose. HYPSM+Wharton&Ross are target schools of the top 6 investment firms, for example. Please check on the vault’s website.</p>
<p>Please don’t tell my husband who has been toiling away as a partner at a top MC firm for 20 plus years! Or my son working as a VC in Socal, other son in Silicon Valley at a tech firm and daughter at GE.</p>
<p>All of us who sit on WS and have senior positions have people in our offices all over the world who report to us. I have staff in CA and hire for that office as well several other places. The people who want to work for us today see the business as global, they know it’s likely they will work in several parts of the world at the firm’s discretion. This is the same in MC. Lots of training goes on in NY and then you get deployed.</p>
<p>I would say HYPS equals Wharton for any job category. After that favorite colleges are often firm related. Personally I’d recommend any ivy after those 5 schools, and Caltech, Chicago and Duke before the other business programs except Sloan for any NYC job/training program that is not specialized like accounting. The very top LACs too. Whether you want a management training pogram, consulting, banking…these schools have great networks and will serve you well. </p>
<p>The exceptions would be schools like Marshall if you want to work in SoCal for life, NU if you want a Chicago based firm and a few other similar situations.</p>
<p>This is not to say you can’t get elite jobs from the top business programs, it’s just where I’d place my bet.</p>
<p>I should also mention that none of my 3, knowing they probably wanted business careers and having access to lots of great businesspeople for advice, chose an undergrad business program. One chose a “lower ivy”, another a top LAC and the third MIT. They are legacies at Wharton and had the stats and chose not to apply because they wanted broader undergrad programs.</p>
<p>“I didn’t say Berkeley grads are highly visible in NYC. Why would Berkeley grads be flocking to NYC when there are equally great opportunities for them waiting right at their own backyard?”</p>
<p>I do not agree w/ those of you who get annoyed at these arguments. I think they are very informative, enjoyable and can help answer the op’s question, albeit indirectly.</p>
<p>Smarts, youth, arrogance, I can conquer the world vs. maturity, wisdom, experience, things are changing.</p>
<p>This is not the only thread hmom5 has been in a heated conversation. Seems like some folk do not like what she has to say. You should not dismiss her experience and history, even if it is not what you want to hear. To do so is extremely immature. (Not what you want to hear, I’m sure) </p>
<p>Print this thread and stick it in a folder. Re-read it in a few years. You will laugh, I guarantee. Not saying at who–you’ll just laugh.</p>