<p>Yes, but couldn’t those students get merit aid by choosing a less selective school in the first place? </p>
<p>That said, I definitely agree that college tuition costs are hugely out of whack. I really would like to see real numbers for colleges’ actual expenses from ten years ago compared to now. I know that the college experience these days is much more like an upper-middle-class experience than the middle-class experience it used to be: shiny new auditoriums and sports centers, wood-burning pizza ovens and grill-to-order burgers instead of the crappy cafeteria food we all suffered through, etc. Does the cost of those amenities account for the hike in tuition rates? It would be an interesting commentary on our society if so – it would parallel the similar change that’s happened in a lot of other areas, including housing (many families seem to feel that granite countertops and walk-in closets are necessities of life), travel (remember how our parents used to throw us in the car for cross-country campground-hopping road trips and call that a vacation, rather than springing for 4 plane tickets to Disneyworld?), and electronics (no comment necessary). Even if we didn’t originally yearn for all this stuff, now that it’s there, we really don’t want to give it up. It is much harder for people to accept losing something they already have than not acquiring something they don’t yet have.</p>
<p>Ha, I just replied to that post on that thread.</p>
<p>Look, I’m in this too. I find it painful that my kids, who are at least as smart and definitely more hard-working than my husband and I were, probably can’t get into our alma maters, even leaving cost aside. I’ve spent the past few months, since I started researching the college application process, accustoming myself to the fact that it’s a brave new world out there and that my kids may end up going to a second- or third-tier state school. I remind myself that if that’s their fate, then it must also be the fate of countless other kids who share their high stats, so they’ll still be surrounded by their peers – and once they’re adults, the fact that students of their high caliber have been graduating from these state schools will mean that the reputation of those schools will be much higher than it is today.</p>
<p>But of course I still want the best for them because they deserve it. I’m just lucky that they don’t seem to give a rat’s ass for prestige. </p>
<p>@dustypig Exactly. In fact I get some roll-eyes when I mention “Ivy” to my CA raised kids. I think they see it as a badge of honor to duke it out academically with all comers rich or poor. They see the silver spoon more as something of which you should be embarrassed - not proud. </p>
<p>“Resigned to that fate” sounds a little dramatic. But I have enjoyed commiserating as well. My kiddo’s SATs are nearly 500 points above mine (if they had three parts back then.) He’ll have completed 13 APs, me - 0 maybe 1. I completed trig in HS - he’ll finish Calc BC. He’s working at 2am to get work done - I was straggling in the door from a kegger at 2am. The family’s evolving for the better!</p>
<p>@dustypig:
About half the country lives in states that have publics that are great in at least some aspect/fields (and some have publics that are great in many). Also, if they are good enough to get in to any Ivy, chances are that they can get good merit at schools with honors colleges or LACs that are as good as Ivies in many ways. You live in CA, right? Your state has an enviable collection of high-quality publics for almost any type of student. Not just Cal/UCLA/UCSD, but also College of Creative Studies at UCSB. And the CC route not just in to UC’s but also USC (and other schools).</p>
<p>Yes, I agree, we’re lucky. But my point was that it’s not just that colleges are more expensive than 25 years ago – they’re also more competitive. Back in the day, if you had the stats, you were in. Now having the stats is only the first hurdle. I believe my kids’ stats are competitive and that they’ll get into good schools, but I don’t want to assume anything – and competition for the UCs is getting really fierce. There were a lot of disappointed California kids this past spring. </p>
<p>That’s why I said that if they end up at a “lesser” UC, it will be because of this increased competition, and it will also mean that other students who are comparable to them will be joining them there.</p>
<p>This is certainly true for some states & majors.</p>
<p>I think that, if you’re willing to think outside the box, there are always options, however. If you know their interests, CC is usually quite helpful.</p>
<p>For the students on CC, sure; but, for the majority of students, no. High stats kids are not the only ones going to college. So, for high stats kids, you are correct, but even then only to a point.</p>
<p>Dropping down a tier or two has its limits because merit money itself is limited. There is no endless pot of money. Schools routinely point out that they give out money until it is all used. And that is much quicker than students realize. The high stats kids are lucky, but they are not the average student. And the high stat kids still needs to apply early enough in the lower tier schools, which tend to be rolling admissions. </p>
<p>It is important to realize that most kids being discussed on CC have options in terms merit aid, but the CC students only represent a small fraction of the issue being discussed here, i.e., how to manage the high cost of college. Unfortunately, it is the other students without these options who represent the major bulk of the trillion dollar student loan market and who are defaulting at rates unseen in any other standard loan market.</p>
<p>There is something is definitely wrong with a system when a student can amass $40 - 60K in loans, but yet still cannot qualify to buy a used car. Grads students are even higher still.</p>
<p>I understand your correction re finaid and/or merit aid. </p>
<p>More importantly, I do not want you think I am disagreeing with you. I am not. As a fiscal fact, your statement is correct, but the problem is not the fact of the average loan per student. The problem, as I see it, is the sheer number of students to which the average does not apply.</p>
<p>This is similar to a conversation I had with an admin officer when my DS1 was visiting schools. The officer mentioned the average SAT score from the year before in the info session. And after the session, I asked, “I heard the average, but can you tell me the median score?” The officer chuckled because I guess he knew I was asking the more relevant question. It turns out the median score was 80+ points higher than the mean score, i.e., there were a whole lot more kids with scores above the mean, than below. The mean really was a lower score, which actually did not represent the average student. There clearly was a sizable segment of students who were accepted that dragged the average down a good bit. </p>
<p>I see the average loan number and the way different families are “charged” different tuitions rates in a similar vein. That is, many more families are experiencing the 2X+ inflation rate of tuition than are represented by the families with the federal loan average.</p>
<p>And my big problem is prices do not naturally rise this fast for this long a time unless something is propping up the purchase. If students and their families have incomes rising only a fraction of the tuition increase, then the rise in tuition rates is not from them, but from the entity propping up the purchase for them. We already know the culprit. If it were a free market, no way would tuition rates be this high.</p>
<p>@awcntdb:
The majority of students wouldn’t be able to get in to the Ivies/equivalents anyway, so whether they can afford them or not is a moot point. I thought the group of students we were discussing were those who could get in to an Ivy but couldn’t afford to pay (and family make too much for fin aid).</p>
<p>For those kids whose reach school is a state flagship, their costs have gone up as well, but that’s in large part because state expenditures on public colleges have not kept up anywhere close to inflation (in fact, are downright lower in many states). In that case, lessening affordability is actually due to <em>too</em>little_ government, not too much.</p>
<p>I have one relative who chose a London University over similar tier US college - price was better, and I have met multiple foreign college students on the train in Germany who were studying in Germany. When will market forces kickin?</p>
<p>Take foreign students, you mean? Though I believe the best CS programs are in the US (and some are UCs). CalPoly SLO CS grads also seem to do well.</p>
<p>However, you might want to look in to UBC and Waterloo in Canada. Not sure what their costs are, however.</p>
<p>@PurpleTitan Waterloo is quite reasonable. McGill was reasonable too if you took the BA version of CS but I there were a couple of engineering variants that were as expensive as the top US CS schools. University of Toronto was at US levels if I recall. </p>
<p>Right, though if you’re going to major in CS, you have very good in-state options in CA, TX, MI, IL, GA, IN, WA, VA (overall), NM, MD, WI, & MN (through WI). A full-tuition scholarship to a LAC who has a 3-2 partnership with Columbia is also an option that might be financially feasible (though that’s a higher-risk and tougher route).</p>
<p>CC and transfering would also be a cheaper option, and a possibility to get in to UCs. UMich, UIUC, and other highly rated schools for CS don’t seem that difficult to transfer in to (OK, transferring in to CS at UIUC might be quite hard, so strike them). It’s much easier to transfer to UNC OOS than to get in there directly out of HS.</p>
<p>Also, the grads of NM Mining and Tech seem to do impressively well, and their OOS tuition is reasonable.</p>
But I have enjoyed commiserating as well. My kiddo’s SATs are nearly 500 points above mine (if they had three parts back then.) He’ll have completed 13 APs, me - 0 maybe 1. I completed trig in HS - he’ll finish Calc BC. He’s working at 2am to get work done - I was straggling in the door from a kegger at 2am. The family’s evolving for the better!</p>