I am picking up on a topic that developed out of another thread.
My HS senior s is in AP Calc BC and AP Chem. I know engineeting students are encouraged to start with Calc 1-2 freshman year, even if they get a 4/5 on the AP Calc test.
What is the advice on AP Chem if a student gets a 4 or 5? Is it advisable for an aspiring engineer major to “AP” out of general college chemistry?
What other advice do folks have on the issue of testing out of freshman level pre-engineering or engineering classes?
It depends on the specific engineering major of interest. If it is Mechanical, Electrical or Civil Engineering, I would be inclined to let them take the AP credit. If it is Biomedical or Chemical Engineering, then I would talk to the student a bit more, and try to figure out what the student’s study habits are like. If the student is disciplined and a self starter, then I would say go ahead and take the AP credit. If I get the feeling that the student is a bit uncertain, then I would make the argument that repeating the material will solidify the concepts and help build a healthy GPA.
If the course is not a key prerequisite for anything else (but just a side requirement, like chemistry often is for many non-chemical/materials/biomedical engineering majors), it is fine to skip it with AP credit and enjoy a free elective (perhaps in a later semester) in its place.
If the course is a key prerequisite for something else (e.g. math or physics, or chemistry for chemical/materials/biomedical engineering majors), the student can make a better placement decision by reviewing the syllabus of the course that s/he is allowed skip with AP credit and then trying the college’s old final exams for that course. The result can tell the student whether s/he knows the material well by the college’s standards and can move on without much risk, needs to review a few topics before going on, or really should retake the course.
The same can apply for out-of-major subjects (e.g. economics, psychology) if the student wants to take more advanced courses in those subjects.
Note that the College of Engineering at Berkeley tells entering frosh with AP credit to try the old Math 1A (calculus 1) and Math 1B (calculus 2) exams to check their knowledge:
http://engineering.berkeley.edu/student-services/new-students/first-math-course
To add to what @ucbalumnus said, schools are very helpful in sorting this out. Tests are frequently available online. If they aren’t, have the student call the department and tell them why they want the old tests. They will most likely email a midterm and final or two. They want students placed to succeed. My son started first term in Physics II and Calc III and did fine. He did review a couple of things prior to starting back, mainly series. They tend to get glossed over in AP, but are important for engineers. He got completely out of the Chemistry requirement with dual enrollment credit. A 5 only would have allowed him to skip half of it, a 4 would have been of no benefit. He’s an ME and took Organic in HS too. His knowledge was fine for materials. Other than that, he’ll never likely use Chem again.
You really have to look at this based on your student’s abilities, their willingness to work hard freshman year (to be honest, there are other things to do and if they would rather play than work, repeating Calc 1 is a way to do it without any real effect on their future), their projected rank at the college (although you could really over or even underestimate that if your high school is small or non-competitive or too competitive), their study habits (do they really learn the material or do they study for tests, which will leave them at no advantage over someone who has never taken the class) and other factors (difficulty adjusting to college, living away from home, school supports, etc) and any GPA requirements or competitive admissions into engineering (if you need a 3.2 to get in or are trying to get into say a UC engineering program you are not admitted to, you may really want to take easier classes).
At some schools, Calc 1 and 2 are hard for anyone, so these would not be easy As. Avoiding “weed-out” classes might be a real advantage.
I am not really sure if anyone graduates early due to skipping classes, but boredom is also not a good way to start college, especially if you want to go to grad school or even do really technical work in your career (an additional senior level class would be much better prep for those two paths).
Also, if a school offers a small honors session, that may be a reason to retake, since they will get more attention than being in a big lecture hall (which argueably is not much different than self-studying, taking the credit, and enrolling in Calc 2 or 3 spring semester) and likely the class is geared to teaching the more academic and/or subtle parts like series than showing people … hey this is a derivative which your typical CalcABC APer might well find horrifying (or not go to class and then get a C on the midterm due to missing something).
Calc 1 and 2 really are not that hard for someone who is good at math and has a good high school calculus course behind them and has ventured beyond problems 1-10 in their textbooks…
With all the on-line resources, including many colleges with on-line tests, notes, etc, if someone is motivated, it is easy to either figure out where you should start or what you need to self-study.
If you do chose to skip classes, take advantage of all resources, and maybe be willing to step down a class if you go into week 3 and go … what the heck is that ? Some schools allow drop/add … some schools would probably consider it for a struggling student similar to the other thread …
Chem 1 and 2 are also not that hard, for someone who has taken 2 years of chemistry in a good high school with a good teacher.
Physics in college is all calculus-based and is a survey course with a ton of material. Skipping semesters or years could lead you astray if you don’t know all the topics, or just didn’t really get it.
Engineering requires a pretty large skill set that you can either learn in high school or more typically in college. You can’t fake knowing any of it for long (midterm can be a rude awakening for many).
I agree with @PickOne1 … even dropping courses like Calc I and II will depend on the school. I will take the example of my D2’s school, GTech.
The recommended course curriculum for ChemE is
http://www.chbe.gatech.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/ugrad/11/curriculum-standard.pdf
Check out the avg. GPA for Calc I … 2.41 !!
http://critique.gatech.edu/course.php?id=MATH1501
while for Calc III it barely improves to 2.68
http://critique.gatech.edu/course.php?id=MATH2401
The mid 50% SAT Math for GTech students is 690-790.
http://admission.gatech.edu/images/pdf/2015_freshman_profile_web.pdf
IOW, despite selecting super smart kids, they do not deliver the same results for the same course once they are in college. So my advise is to repeat the core courses, especially if you would like to graduate with a high GPA (useful later on for grad schools, a top flight MBA I am hoping in the case of my D2). In a student/work life career span of 35-40 years, doing well in school and having a solid foundation I think is more advantageous than gaining a few months.
Personally, if Calc grade averages were that low, I may really, really use my AP credits to avoid getting those grades and self-study to Calc2 or Calc 3 (where you can still get a C, but at least it is only one instead of say 3).
Like you said, GTech is not admitting dummies who should not be ready for Calc 1, and I struggle to think what SHOULD be on a Calc1 or 2 test that would get kids these lousy grades (and I have taken grad level engineering math and applied classes and advanced math myself and the engineering undergrad versions). Why would you not let these kids do well in Calc 1 and 2 and if they are interested in math, take more math classes at a higher level as part of their 4 year plan ?
I smell overzealous low grading … weedout of lower GA students or even end of Hope scholarship money (although those standards are really low 1.7 GPA).
Also, if Calc 1 is legitimately too hard for say the 22% of students who get Ds and Fs and maybe some or more of the additional 25% who get Cs (and probably most of them worked for those), why are these kids not steered to pre-calc or tutoring or other services ? Does Gtech make you take Calc 1 again with those Ds and Fs and if so, what to the kids get the second time around (only 50% get As and Bs, including those 790+ SAT scorers which make up 25% of the class).
I don’t really recall need for really complex math in undergrad engineering classes, although GTech is a top school. I do agree that Calc is the foundation of many engineering disciplines and you need more than a high school level understanding to do well in engineering.
I think GTech just changed their entire math series, so maybe they will address this. I think part of the issue was the lack of multivariate experience in typical CalcBC class led to poor performance in Calc 3. Calc 3 is actually a hard class to do well in, those triple integrals will get most people due to math errors or lack of being able to picture the volume of a complex paraboloid soild.
OK, I do remember that my state flagship (in the early 80s) had Calc 1 set up as a monstrously large class. The tests were all multiple choice with a large penalty for guessing. To protect privacy, only the student numbers and grades for each test were posted in the stairwell of the math building. I recall seeing at least one example of a poor kid who managed to get a -30 on his first test. On the second test, he got something positive, maybe, so his average became something like -30+10/2 or -10. Now assuming he did attend the exam and write say his name on the header and sit there for 2 hours how could that possibly be -10 effort (not showing up, an instant higher 0).
Besides this poor sap, there were legions of other kids who just didn’t know all the material and with the guessing penalty, got really low grades, Ds and Fs … it was not hard to do. Those posted grades were really, really low.
I was really loving life in my 25 person honors Calc 2 class with a full professor that taught well, I had gotten a 5 on Calc AB (there was no BC) but was told not to skip Calc 2 since the Calc 3 giant class was also basically a weedout class.
I also clearly remember my excellent high school teacher saying that none of his students had ever gotten less than an A in calc in college, and to be honest, I totally believe him. So consider your high school, and maybe do ask your teacher how people do in college. Really a high school math teacher is not required to teach you college calculus, but some do, and some do it more successfully than others.
My D was also advised by other students including honors students to not retake calc at another state flagship, since grading is really tough and you couldn’t really count on an easy A or even an easy B.
So definitely research your school carefully, talk to your advisers and other students, consider taking calc review class or self-study or … if you college has a good Calc 1 class, take that and learn math and keep your GPA high. Maybe self-study during the summer to get ready … it is hard to catch up with a midterm in week 7, especially if you delude yourself that you can get an A until you see that grade.
Obviously, if you can’t pass a typical Calc1 exam posted on line, Berkeley or others, just take Calc 1 and work hard and make sure you do hard problems for homework, even if they are not assigned, so you don’t get that -10 !! And maybe still self study in summer and certainly in weeks 1-6.
When did it become orthodox opinion that one is expected to take each math course twice? I.e. that one should take calculus in high school and then take calculus again in college, or that one should take multivariable calculus in high school before taking multivariable calculus in college? Would the same apply to other math courses, whether normally taken in high school (precalculus) or college (linear algebra, differential equations)?
Back when I was in high school and college, the normal expectation was to take each course in the sequence precalculus → calculus → multivariable calculus once. Of course, some students did have to repeat precalculus if they had weak high school math courses, repeat calculus if they did poorly on the AP calculus exam after high school calculus, or repeat any of these courses if they earned a D or F grade the first time. But good students were expected to learn the material the first time and move on.
This debate is very much like the single child vs. multi-sib debate. Everyone has an opinion, but it boils down to the individual making the decisions. Repeating a class is no guarantee of an “easy A.” The main difference in college testing is volume and thus speed. Many students simply can’t finish or get flustered because they have no time to check their work or hunt down errors where they know something is wrong. That’s why, and I’ll repeat this, the best option is to follow the @ucbalumnus advice, get the syllabi, take the tests, see if you’re ready. There are big advantages of being ahead. Two more that I didn’t mention are scheduling and course load. Many schools register for classes by hours completed (i.e. juniors register before sophomores). Having more hours lets a student register ahead of the rest of his or her cohort. More importantly, when classes really start getting challenging, students who are ahead can take lighter loads. In the end, there really is no blanket “right way.” It’s disastrous to move ahead if you aren’t ready, but the rewards are many if you are.
My friends went to private universities and took pre-calculus before calc in college, after taking tests and not scoring high enough to be advised to take Calc1. Both graduated on time.
My schoolmates at a flagship state school tried to just keep moving on, and several either left engineering or failed out all together and went to 2nd or 3rd tier state schools for different majors. That was when you looked left and right and knew only one of you three would make it in engineering. So good chance I am even more of a dinosaur than you.
Engineering is never going to be an easy major, seems like ABET has been able to keep that a given despite the dumbing down of many other educational standards, including the SAT and well, many high schools with feel-good grades, and a lack of qualified high school teachers in STEM fields.
This also directly correlates to high starting salaries from all ABET accredited schools, it’s a valuable degree that you work hard for and come out knowing how to do engineering … and can get paid accordingly.
I think this thread is so that people find the best path for them.
If your high school calc was just OK and you got a 4 or lower on the AP, you probably need to take real genuine Calc 1 at your school, especially if it is competitive.
More people are taking calc in high school than ever, including Calc BC. That doesn’t mean they have taken college calculus at all
I will state that I do not think the average high school will have a calculus teacher as well as enough students qualified to really have a college level Calc BC class that would allow seamless movement of their average (not star) student into an engineering calculus 2 or especially 3 class and get an A or B. For Calc AB, I think it is more possible.
If you go to a high school that is not competitive or STEM focused, you may have to take pre-calc, which is not sinful or a waste of time if you can get your BS in engineering in 4 or even 5 years (it’s a tough major all around).
If you go to a college with wildly difficult or wildly low grading math sequence, you have to look out for yourself and take the best path. Again, no shame in taking pre-calc or Calc 1 twice … .much worse to do poorly and have to leave your major or even your college.
There is no general rules on this topic. My D took all the AP credits and skipped Calc1, Calc2, Chem, and Phys1. She did fine (though not great) in Calc3, Calc4, OrChem1, and 2. That saved her at least 1 semester of work.
In engineering? The sequenced prerequisites of most engineering majors tends to make it more difficult to graduate in 8 semesters if one has to start in precalculus, rather than at least calculus 1.
However, average students tend not to take calculus BC these days. Taking any calculus in high school is a year advanced compared to the usual math sequence in US high schools, and most of those students take AB. Those who take BC are usually at the top end of the math scale among high school students, which is reflected in about half of them getting scores of 5 on the AP exam (in contrast, the AP exam for AB has a much lower score distribution).
So the BC students are more likely to be the ones fully capable of starting in a more advanced college math course than the AB students, but that is likely in part due to the initial (self-)selection effect of stronger-in-math students choosing BC over AB. Of course, reviewing the syllabi and trying the tests of the college math courses is still the best way to make a more informed placement decision.
Taking longer than 8 semesters to graduate can be expensive, especially if scholarships run out or financial aid gets reduced for any extra semesters. Students who are at risk of needing extra semesters need to make college finance planning to take that risk into account.
Yes, two people I know graduated in 4 years from private school starting at least one semester below Calc 1 in engineering, in the 80s.
If your high school math was weak, or your skills aren’t as strong as others in those classes, the cheapest and safest option might be to consider taking pre-calc or maybe Calc1 at your local CC BEFORE you head of to college. Trying to somehow catch up with other in colleges with a midterm at week 6 and a final at week 12 in many cases with what is obviously a weed-out lecture hall class is very hard.
Coming out of Calc 1 with a D just leaves you very few good options, and you are still a semester behind with a lower GPA. Coming out of Pre-Calc with an A … you can fix that and probably have improved your basic skills more than someone who is flailing around in Calc 1.
Many schools do not mandate Physics 1 for fall freshman, so you don’t need to be co-enrolled in Calc 1.
Statistics from many schools show that the average years to graduation is 4.5 or even higher, which obviously means lots of people graduating in 5 years. Needing to drop out of school after 4 due to finances is a bad plan, although summer school may allow you to catch up and graduate in 4 years.
Calc BC is common around here, but we have a program to accelerate people 2 years during elementary school, about 25% of students start on this track although fewer actually get to Calc BC by senior year (many drop down or takes StatsAP instead). Best news is that the accelerated classes include 40% or higher girls.
It is much worse to do poorly or fail out, but that is not the only route. Many succeed, some wildly so, by skipping classes. My son is a perfect example. He skipped right into Calc III, Physics II and tested out of Chem completely. He is doing extremely well. To make a blanket statement that taking it again can’t hurt, misses out on all the MANY benefits of being accelerated.
I will state this a third time. Do as @ucbalumnus always recommends. Get the syllabi. Take the tests. See if you’re ready.
Schools which list physics 1 in the frosh spring are often those which expect students to have completed calculus 1 (or high school calculus) before taking physics 1.
@eyemgh, other than the obvious, what are the “MANY” benefits one misses out on for NOT being accelerated?
If one is well prepared to start in a more advanced math course than calculus 1 in college, the benefits are:
a. More schedule flexibility. If your longest prerequisite sequence is shortened from seven to six semesters, then you have more discretion as to which semester you can take some of the courses.
b. Additional space for free electives (possibly later) in place of the courses skipped. These can be used on more advanced electives in your major, or interesting out-of-major courses. Or even lighter schedules when particularly difficult or time consuming courses are taken.
c. Lower risk of late graduation.
My D also skipped Calc 1, Calc 2, General Chem, and Phys1 (all by AP credits) in freshmen year of engineering school without problem and even got onto the Dean’s List and received University Honors.