My ds feels that he doesn’t have enough ECs/leadership positions to get into an Ivy or Ivy-equivalent. His stats, though, are great. Are there top or near-the-top colleges that don’t much care about ECs (aside from colleges in other countries)?
State flagships in many states have automatic admission for high enough stats. Don’t know if that exists in the one in your state, whether the one in your state is “top or near-the-top” enough for you, or whether that may apply to any in a different state that you can afford.
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Without knowing his ECs, it’s very hard to say whether they are good enough for any type of college.
So tell us…what ARE his ECs?
Is this the same kid who is interested in BFA programs? If so, one would think that ECs related to BFA area would be important.
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When a college talks about leadership in terms of admissions, they’re not always ONLY talking about “Were you the president of Club ___?” Go listen to a podcast put out by “Getwise,” titled “You don’t need a title to be a leader.”
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Two different kids - twins! Both sophomores. BFA-aspiring son is studying acting as an EC. But the other son is interested in economics/business. That younger twin (by 1 minute!) is an active member of his school’s FBLA group and the school’s club about multiculturalism. But no leadership positions, no awards, no athletics, etc. He’s convinced himself that his odds at a top college are hopeless, despite fantastic grades. I would love to be able to point him toward great colleges that put little admissions weight on ECs. Meanwhile, I know he could get a wonderful education at dozens and dozens of lower-ranked colleges, and I’ve told him that. But for various reasons, his heart is breaking anyway.
He is a member of a couple of clubs. Has he been in these more than one year? He is only a sophomore…many kids find their EC niche during or even after that year. He has some time to hone the two activities he is in…and maybe he will get excited. This year hasn’t been the easiest year for ECs.
He needs to have a broad range of schools on his application list anyway. Only applying to elite and highly competitive schools isn’t wise.
Does he have a geographic preference…or do you have financial constraints? Give us a little more info…and I’ll bet folks will come in with great recommendations.
And he is just a sophomore. He has some time to craft his application list.
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thumper1 - No, he joined those two clubs only this year. As for coming up with a college list, he has no geographical preference whatsoever - nor any preference as to the size of the college, nor any preference for private versus public. As for affording colleges, we have no real financial constraints. Bottom line: he’s open to any college, anywhere - so long as it offers an economics and/or business major - and as long as it offers a really stellar education by some meaningful measure - and so long as it doesn’t place applicants’ ECs on near-equal par with their academics.
Would your S consider McGill or University of Toronto? They’re just outside the US, great universities and care about stats vs ECs.
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Immediately thought of Oxbridge but then saw you asked for suggestions in the U.S. Top domestic colleges will be tough because the entire package (i.e. stats/ECs) is considered in holistic admissions. Agree with the suggestion about looking at state flagships where admissions may be more stats driven.
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vpa2019 - Yes, I think my son would consider McGill or University of Toronto. We’d have to look more into them - I’ve only glanced at Canadian possibilities for college. Thanks for suggesting them!
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mountainsoul - Well, my qualm about Oxbridge was that I’ve read somewhere that they don’t really like taking on American undergraduates - I think because British students specialize to some extent pre-college, and therefore are more advanced in their particular studies when they enter the university, as compared with American students. I also have the impression that it would be difficult to change your concentration (or whatever they call it) midstream. Plus, I think their college experience is over within three years, and I’d really like ds to have that fourth year somewhere, if only to grow up a bit more. All that said - I’ve idly looked at colleges in Scotland and Ireland, which I think are four-year programs, and which may offer the American-type of experience of having an easy time switching majors. So … yeah, we’re definitely not ruling out international options. But I’m wondering what good American options might be!
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I hadn’t heard that about Oxbridge. It was suggested by some of the more knowledgeable parents at our high school for my pointy S. I got the impression that IB kids demonstrate the requisite depth in coursework and can be successful in gaining admissions. However, looking at the Naviance data for our competitive high school, I see that no students from our school have been accepted to Oxbridge in the past six years. Students tend to have better success with the Scottish universities—especially University of Edinburgh—so looking at Scotland is a good strategy.
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You don’t have to belong to a lot of clubs. But most kids do something outside school. As an example my younger son got roped into helping our local neighborhood association organized their old newsletters and correspondence to get them digitized. For a short essay about “what was your favorite EC” he wrote about what he learned from reading these documents. One was about how an issue of whether the school playground should be open to the neighborhood went back and forth as each generation of parents forgot the previous history of what happened. Another was how he was fascinated to see how there was a huge fight about whether the schools should have open classrooms with many documents in the files, but then it just stopped with no indication as to what the resolution was. He said it made him feel like a real historian as he realized the limitations of primary sources. It wasn’t a fancy EC, but he was able to show his critical thinking skills, his thoughtfulness and also his sense of humor in the way he told the story.
A friend of mine’s daughter did a similar thing with an essay about what she learned from a summer job at an ice cream shop.
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Oxbridge will want to see a certain number of AP scores I believe. Check their websites.
Once a student meets a certain threshold for grades and test scores, getting in strongly depends on interviews. Make no mistake, the interviewers will expect very solid answers to their questions, which will primarily be based on what he intends to read.
As far as having great stats, what exactly are they? Is he taking the most rigorous courses? That’s really important for the most competitive schools, along with great teacher recs, ECs, and essays. He’s a sophomore so he has plenty of time to go more in depth into what he is interested in outside of school.
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IB would work (if you are getting mostly 7s and a total of 42-43+ out of 45), but would usually mean a conditional offer so you don’t know if you will be able to attend until the summer.
Agree that the US definition of “great stats” is hard to compare to UK expectations because the US standard tests aren’t “long tail” enough. A lot of 5s in APs (and finding them easy) is a necessary but not sufficient condition. The substitute for great ECs in a UK context is reading obsessively about your subject, for example look at what a PPE student is expected to read before they start the course (and you’d be well advised to read a lot of this before an interview when applying):
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Yes, I was thinking mostly about US students, where many high schools still don’t offer IB.
And I’ve heard about those reading lists. They expect serious intellectual ability. Not to devolve this thread too much into a discussion of Oxbridge, but it’s hard to imagine too many US students acquiring this level of reading before college. There’s a good reason why, generally speaking, American students who attend college in the UK often struggle to catch up.
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If at some point your S entertains the idea of college abroad, the Scottish universities may be worth considering. They are 4 vs 3 years and offer a slight bit of curriculum flexibility which the English schools do not. And stats are king 
.
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I would first make sure he has a solid list of schools that go beyond the Ivy+ list. I’ve encouraged my friends to understand that attending an Ivy+ school should not be the definition of success for a student.
Of course it’s great to aim high. My S21 enjoyed the book “How to be a High School Superstar” by Cal Newport, which I think outlines a more sane approach than just stacking up excessive AP classes and creating a laundry list of ECs.
My S21 was admitted to UChicago. I don’t know exactly why they chose to admit him, and he has no “hooks,” but I can tell you he did not “play the game” by someone else’s rules. Meaning, he took AP classes that interested him (12 total). He participated in, and excelled at, ECs that excited him (band, speech, and creative writing). He did not join NHS or student counsel, did very few volunteer hours, and his only leadership position was prepared speech lead in 12th grade. He didn’t do anything for the sole purpose of resume building. Rather he did things that were important to him. One of his greatest assets is that he’s just very interesting, as well as authentic, and I think that came across in his application.
I share this because I think too many students are caught up in the competition with others, when they’d be better served by just pursuing their own interests and challenging (but not overwhelming) themselves with an appropriate level of rigor based on the classes available to them.
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