<p>If you read the example #3 from the Princeton site, it’s not even possibly innocent – it’s a straight-out, clumsy, point-for-point summary of the original, without any other content. I don’t see that as controversial. What might have been controversial would have been if the student cited the source for the basic idea that lots of Hamlet commented on the theater, then came up with four examples, two from the source and two of his own, without further acknowledging the source.</p>
<p>Ok - I see now JHS. Yes - example #3 should have acknowledged the source. Also should have used some other examples s/he came up with using the ol’ noggin. I do hope that kid would not have been expelled. S/he writes much better than the person they were “plagiarizing.” I would hope the prof would sit down and have a discussion rather than rolling out the red ink and judicial process. Allow a rewrite. Give a bad grade. Not expulsion. Teach.</p>
<p>BCEagle, I think that is a great idea. I could use one of those classes myself.</p>
<p>Prof. Charles Lipson at U Chicago has authored a useful book on plagiarism:
[Amazon.com:</a> Doing Honest Work in College: How to Prepare Citations, Avoid Plagiarism, and Achieve Real Academic Success, Second Edition (Chicago Guides to Academic Life) (9780226484778): Charles Lipson: Books](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Honest-Work-College-Plagiarism/dp/0226484777/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2]Amazon.com:”>http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Honest-Work-College-Plagiarism/dp/0226484777/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_2)</p>
<p>He has additional resources on his website:
[url=<a href=“http://www.charleslipson.com/Reading-Writing-Plagiarism-and-Academic-Honesty.htm#Anti-plagiarismResources]Reading-Writing-Plagiarism-and-Academic-Honesty[/url”>http://www.charleslipson.com/Reading-Writing-Plagiarism-and-Academic-Honesty.htm#Anti-plagiarismResources]Reading-Writing-Plagiarism-and-Academic-Honesty[/url</a>]</p>
<p>To be fair to Princeton, they are very clear with freshmen on the honor code and have extensive orientation on this issue at the start. I’m sure they expect students to fully inform themselves and read the given examples before they even start classes.</p>
<p>I agree that the example above is quite obviously a copy of the idea and structure. Maybe, if that were the only such paragraph in an otherwise original essay, it could be chalked up to coincidence, but if such a paraphrasing technique is recurring throughout a paper, including using different sources, the student must be aware of what he is doing.</p>
<p>Expulsion is extremely harsh and I would hope that it is only used in the most egregious of cases. As I posted on the other thread, Princeton uses varying levels of disciplinary actions.</p>
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<p>In any given case that we hear of second or third-hand, we cannot know the actual circumstances and aggravating factors (especially when coming via the offending student) so it is impossible to judge whether a punishment is warranted. But at least there is a committee handling it and it does not depend on one person or professor.</p>
<p>Oh Poetgirl, a bouquet of flowers to you for the sentence, </p>
<p>“It’s one thing to ask students to cite when the idea they come across is something they haven’t heard a few times before, but the fetishistic way professors sometimes hunt it down is the mean-spirited selfishness of the uncreative.”</p>
<p><3</p>
<p>I read a piece from a professor on plagiarism where he suggested (perhaps sarcastically), that students use books more often as a reference as professors are less likely to schlep over to the library to check a citation than they are to google it.</p>
<p>It is plariagism when students paraphrase in their essays what professors say in the lectures?</p>
<p>Hugcheck–the point on structure is if you take an argument, and create the same argument, point by point by point, even in different words, you have in fact created nothing. </p>
<p>You yourself may think the wording is better, but the fact remains that the thinking, which is the structure of the argument, has been plagiarized. </p>
<p>There really is nothing new about this stringency; it’s just more remarked on now because it is more violated now.</p>
<p>CW–if they don’t cite the source, then yes.</p>
<p>We don’t know that it is “more violated” now.</p>
<p>We do know that professors have all sorts of technological tools to check, now, if it is violated.</p>
<p>Back at the beginning of the thread, someone suggested that you can’t plagiarize yourself. You can - it’s called self-plagiarizing :-). This was a scary one when I first learned about it, because I knew I had gotten it wrong. I didn’t realize at first that when you wrote about your own older work while presenting new ideas, you had to cite your own earlier publication. Seems obvious now, but it didn’t then.</p>
<p>And as far as mean-spirited selfishness, what would you have me do when lines from students’ essays or research papers are clearly lifted–let it go and teach them it’s okay to steal? I teach freshman comp; if they don’t get it there, where should they? </p>
<p>Or maybe the whole idea of intellectual ownership should be abolished, and we lay claim to whatever we can put our hands on? I’m not asking this rhetorically; there is a body of opinion that leans that way. but if that’s where we’re going, then let’s be honest about it.</p>
<p>Poetgrl–there are also myriad technical advances that make the borrowing much easier now, too.</p>
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<p>Right. But this is where it gets positively Byzantine. And, some of us think, silly…in a Monty Pythonesque way.</p>
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<p>I think this should be taught, absolutely.</p>
<p>I just think it can be a witch hunt. Also, this overemphasis on “originality” gives the impression that there is less collaboration of thought than there is which goes into the “final version” of any idea.</p>
<p>As a creative writer, it is clear “ideas” get in the wind, and many are frequently working with similar tropes and questions. </p>
<p>I come at it from a different perspective. When I teach creative writing, I ALWAYS use imitation on purpose, of form, of structure, of all of it. But, that’s just my perspective. I have also seen, up close and personal, many instances of what I consider to be maliciousness from profesors in regards to certain students. Whenever the power balance is all on one side of the scale, there are abuses.</p>
<p>So, I’m simply here presenting the other side of the debate, for the purpose of argument, and not because I think you should teach your students in any way other than you do. My experience of you, limited though it may be, is that you would ‘teach’ to educate on the subject, not ‘punish’ to teach a “lesson.” There is a difference.</p>
<p>I see your point, Garland. In all of this I keep wondering if I would have gotten in trouble (instead of pulling A’s) for some of the writing I did in school. I did cite my tuchas off. I did paraphrase. I think I did repeat structure in many a paragraph with citation but drew together many different sources and synthesized nicely. I am certain I did not have many new ideas at all. I was mostly there to learn what others had to teach. In my Master’s thesis I attempted to present something new based on field research. However I do not think it ever occurred to me that my job as a student was to create something new. I could synthesize, though. I actually do remember pitching an idea in a paper and thinking I was doing something extremely risque there. Mostly we were (it seemed to me) there to learn what others had done in the field before us. Perhaps in grad school we would be doing original research and similar if becoming a University Professor.</p>
<p>I do understand now why the example you posted could be considered plagiarism - no citation, similar ideas in the same order in one paragraph. I still think the content was expressed more clearly and in more detail than in the original piece and hence added something. The student should have used other examples to support the argument. I do believe I would have done that as a student but there might have been a paragraph or two in my four years that paraphrased structure with citation. Expulsion worthy? </p>
<p>Missypie thanks for validating that I was not the only one learning how to write by “plagiarizing” the World Book encyclopedia at age ten. </p>
<p>Garland, I think if a student lifts sentences it should be pointed out on their paper and they should be graded accordingly. If they are honestly trying to meet the assignment and have written a decent paper with some crabbed text off the internet, I think you call them in to your office and tell them they are risking failing the paper. They should be asked to rework the piece by the day after tomorrow and no lifting allowed. They should be told that if it happens again it will be and F for the paper. And if it happens again it will be an F for the class. But I hope that if they paraphrase with citation they are not sent for judicial action.</p>
<p>I will add that I taught 8th grade for a short time and caught some kids copying homework from each other (sharing). I distributed the 10 points evenly among them resulting in an F on that assignment. They were stunned. They didn’t do it again and I watched carefully.</p>
<p>I think one thing that would help if professors could emphasize that there is no shame in not having original ideas. There is no shame in having lots of citations, multiple citations in one sentence etc.</p>
<p>As far as what my kids learned before college. In 3rd grade my older son wrote a research a paper about “Cold Desserts” he had to have at least 3 resources and write a bibliography. They were taught to “write things in their own words” i.e. paraphrase. Learning about footnotes came a little later. I think in middle school though there might have been something in 5th grade. (By the time younger son was in elementary school they no longer did the research paper they were too busy study for state mandated tests.)</p>
<p>I would teach creative writing differently from how I teach freshman comp.</p>
<p>However, teaching from models is great as long as the student knows that in the end, his creation has to be his own.</p>
<p>Shakespeare didn’t create the character of Hamlet. But no one but him wrote the famous soliloquy.</p>
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<p>this. …</p>