What did happen to the cheater?

Parents Forum
81

<p>Hmmm....and what of the rights of the other students, those who had their work compromised? Or scholarship money opportunities diminished? So we should let cheaters hide away, and never enact consequences because it isn't fair if someone finds out they cheated? This student has not been punished in the manner that students who have violated other policies have been treated. They get their names in the newspaper blotter if it involves an assault or drugs! I am not talking about targeting one cheater, but all potential cheaters. A policy would take an even-handed approach to all infractions.</p>

<p>There are many identifying factors that not have been in this thread, the cheater has not been unveiled, and the moderators have not seen the need to change any of my posts because of FERPA. In fact, there are only one or two posters that insist on beating this dead horse. The rest of us have moved on to honor code solutions.Using this logic, I assume we shouldn't target drunk drivers, embezzlers, scam artists and the like, either. Why have laws?</p>

<p>This thread has moved towards enacting an academic integrity policy that will preclude people who cheat from the shadows, cloaked in anonymity to save their "reputation" so that they may not bump out honest students. It's about making the school a better place. I am soliciting, and receiving a lot of good advice on honor codes from various CC poster experiences in multiple settings. The information has proved invaluable to me, and to my school board. They won't have to start from scratch, and potential pitfalls that have arisen have also been noted. In none of these honor codes does it say reveal the cheater and sit them in public stocks so their classmates can throw rotten tomatoes at them. </p>

<p>I suggest "new poster" or perhaps a muliple personality, start a new thread on why we should allow cheating, or create a sympathy thread for the cheater discussed earlier, rather than argue with the posters here, who have elected to take another direction. I would like to keep this thread in the vein of how to put forth a policy to protect the honest, rather than how to protect the guilty because their repeated infractions were just an oversight, it's everyone elses fault they cheated, everyone else needs to change so just let them continue to cheat. Once is a mistake, six, seven, eight times in multiple classes--not a mistake, both on the part of the student and the administration. We have discussed the need for the administration to be involved and not ignore the problem. Does this give the student a free pass? </p>

<p>Again, I suggest our new friend start a thread that is relevant to their argument, so that this thread can remain open to honor code suggestions. That is what I am seeking.</p>

<p>My next two steps are to get the honor code placed on the school board agenda as an information item, then follow up by having it placed on a subsequent agenda as an action item. If I can complete these steps in the June and July months, the new code can be printed in the handbooks for August and the upcoming school year. Because we have eliminated the need for an unwieldy set of committee meetings etc....I think this is a feasible goal.</p>

<p>Again, many thanks to the CC posters for their help here and in private. Please keep posting your solutions.</p>

82

<p>Addendum to the parent involvement question that has been raised:</p>

<p>The reason I have not discussed the parents here is twofold. One involves second guessing the student, the other involves an issue we've seen frequently on these boards as it relates to college students/parental involvement/privacy. I could take an educated guess, but that would be pointless.</p>

83

<p>I'm a lawyer, and I'm confused as to why this IS a privacy issue. As far as I can tell, the discussion has centered on facts that are ALREADY in the public forum, and therefor not covered by any privacy act. Once the facts are out, they're out and open for discussion, even if they shouldn't have been released in the first place (and I'm not so sure they were protected in the first place). And as far as juvenile procedures are concerned, the only thing that is protected from release to the public in newspapers is the juvenile's name and address. Much other identifying information is available; in fact, I've seen newspaper articles dealing with juvenile crime that have identified the alleged offender's parents by name. How much more identifiable does it get?</p>

<p>So nothing here, as far as I can tell, implicates privacy rights. It's a matter of public interest, and needs to be discussed in public fora.</p>

84

<p>Thanks for your expert input, Chevda. I never saw how there was any violation of privacy laws in this instance. I applaud Texas and empathize with her child's pain. Cheaters never prosper. This one may have prospered in the short run, but will have to meet his/her maker in the end.</p>

85

<p>I think these are some pretty good samples of honor codes that have been implemented in high schools. Is there a committee who will work on this or have you just gotten as far as to make the suggestion to the board? I think you should tell them you will spearhead the committee ... you certainly have the passion and drive behind it! GOOD LUCK and keep up the good work!</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/%7Edruidhills/honor-code/honor-code.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dekalb.k12.ga.us/~druidhills/honor-code/honor-code.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/LangleyHS/saxon/honor.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fcps.k12.va.us/LangleyHS/saxon/honor.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

86

<p>This would go to an existing committee, each school board member sits on several. They could opt to bring in parents and teachers, like when they moved on a dress code. That took forever. What I think they need to do is implement a basic policy, and then go back and tweak any problems that arise. In the past, many committees have died because the "perfect" solution cannot be found, so the idea dies.</p>

87

<p>Honesty=Good, Cheating=Bad, read a sign board outside of a Santa Monica school.....</p>

<p><a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-newroads21may21,1,5545366.story?coll=la-headlines-california%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-newroads21may21,1,5545366.story?coll=la-headlines-california&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

88

<p>At many colleges (including my d.'s), it is an honor code violation not to report the cheating of another student if you know about it. Not reporting it subjects one to the same penalties as the cheater. The point is not to create a campus of tattle-tails, but rather to ensure a climate where everyone knows cheating isn't tolerated.</p>

<p>Pomona is now experimenting with an honor code around drinking that includes a "Good Samaritan" provision - if you believe that a student is experiencing health difficulties and don't call for help, you have violated the honor code. The reality is that a cheater IS experiencing difficulties, in this case ethical ones, and one that threatens the ethical health of the entire campus. I think the analogy is a just one.</p>

89

<p>Many college honor codes do indeed require that cheating be reported. It makes sense as a means of insuring that the community will not tolerate cheaters. Knowing that one will face the same penalty as the cheater if one doesn't report cheating eases the stigma of being an "informant," for want of a better word. </p>

<p>My question is, how well would this work in high school? And my suspicion is, not very well. There's a considerable tribal allegiance to other adolescents in high school, a lingering horror of tattling from elementary school days, a resentment of adult rules that would undercut such a requirement in a hs honor code.</p>

<p>My kids are well aware of cheaters in their classes. My middle d is really hardnosed about ethical things (we sometimes call her "Maximum John") and she was very troubled about what to do when cheating reached egregious levels in one class. The teacher, whom we've known for years, is an entirely trusting and optimistic soul who would be deeply hurt to think that one of her students would cheat.</p>

<p>Call me a cheater-tolerator if you will (phrase?), but I urged my daughter not to inform the teacher. She received enough ridicule and insults from the offenders for refusing to share her homework and test answers. It seemed likely to me that she'd be subject to far worse harrassment if she went to the teacher. There is no expectation that kids will inform adults about specific cheaters in our hs, no encouragement to do so, and no protection in place for those who do. An honor code that enforces such protection might make a difference, but we don't have such a provision in ours.</p>

90

<p>While the Honor Code is essential, even without it, one would think that any student caught cheating would reeceive an F for that test at the very least. While I agree that kids makes mistakes, in this case it was repetetive and the rewards for being a good and honest student were not taken away. No one is suggesting this student be tied to a post or have his college career jeopardized, however, I think that the scholarships and accolades should at the very least be removed since this involved repeated incidents. If it was a particular teacher that wrote his references for college, I am curious why the GC didn't flag them so the teacher in question knew what had occurred.</p>

<p>Having an Honor Code makes sense but not having one doesn't mean this child can't be held accountable. I imagine most scholarships say something about conduct and ethical behavior. I still think the scholarships should go to the next kid in line. Also, I think his NHS removal at least affirms he is responsible for his behavior in one arena. I think I recall our S having to sign something upon NHS induction and that the document clarified that colleges would be notified if he failed to maintian NHS standards such as completing community service hours or ethics violations. Anyone have a copy to see?</p>

<p>Rememeber, this is known throughout the school so the message the other students are getting is that the adults are not willing to step up and see that fairness prevails.</p>

91

<p>
[quote]
No one is suggesting this student be tied to a post or have his college career jeopardized

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Why not?? Earlier I asked if this kid was essentially stealing someone else's spot in the university that they were accepted to. Someone answered that they were taking someone else's place. Someone else was turned away and this moron was accepted instead.</p>

92

<p>It's all about potential litigation to the school...$$$ which any school district can ill afford to defend itself. Even if the school is later held not to be liable, it is much lest costly to let this kid go on than to defend itself without an Honor Code in place.</p>

93

<p>In our district, even the policies we do have in place are often negated or overruled, but at least a policy with some expectations is a start. What they need is an even handed policy that would treat students equally when caught cheating. It has been my experience that parents in-the-know will find and exploit any loophole necessary to get their child off. With no policy in place, the door is wide open. If there had been a policy with set consequences, it is possible that in this particular instance the cheating would not have continued, or at least there would have been no academic or honor benefits. </p>

<p>As for the GCs not informing the teachers...if the common app was used, most kids give the teacher recs directly to the teachers and the GC rec to that office. Our GC is more of a scheduler than a college advisor. The cheating occured in one department, and at least one rec came from a different department. As the teachers don't know who all has been asked, they don't know where to compare notes. That part would be more difficult to police. However, the scholarship applications, transcripts, mid year, and final reports pass through either the GC or the principal's office, and they both did have knowledge. A notation there would have put the decision into the hands of the scholarship committee or college. If they choose to ignore an academic infraction so be it, but at least they had all the information.</p>

<p>Frazzled, I agree that tattling and snitching are avoided by most high school students at all costs. In this particular case, many of the students came forward and asked for relief as these incidents became more frequent. This was a situtation where one student was cheating and the rest weren't, and did not approve. I can imagine many scenarios such as more cheaters than not, a large group consipracy of cheaters, turning in a best friend, etc....where a policy would not entice a student to turn in another. However I would like the option to be there, so that students who do wish to report cheating, can.</p>

<p>I have pretty much decided that in today's climate, there is no perfect honor code that all will approve and follow. But it is better to have something in place for those teachers and students who want to report cheating, than to have nothing at all and no recourse than to sit and watch.</p>

94

<p>The children in this school district are learning that cheaters get ahead, they win when they cheat because people might feel sorry for them, that they couldn't possibly know any better after repeated warnings. </p>

<p>They are also learning that you don't have to take responsibility for your actions because if you do someone will feel sorry for you and get you off.</p>

95

<p>Add me as a supporter of texastaximom (and I have visited the awards thread in the Cafe to that effect). Thank you, curmudgeon, for your pure eloquence in voicing your support and allowing several of us others to join you.</p>

<p>


This is so true. I am one of the ones who posted our school's honor code when TTM asked for examples.</p>

<p>But, as she says, the honor code is the Beginning, not the End. In our school, altho no major scandal has occurred and we have an Honor Code, issues of academic integrity and tolerance of cheating are beginning to surface. The front page article in the student newspaper current issue addressed this - the unfortunate tendency to value success over integrity, which leads to kids (and parents? and school boards?!?) thinking of cheating as "no big deal."</p>

<p>But it IS a big deal. The difference between our school and TTM's is first, that we have that Honor Code; but second, and more importantly, that students and administration care about what underlies it and see violations and the tendency to overlook violations as A Big Deal. The student article raised the issue. Administration is now planning activities and approaches to deal with the tiny little leak in the dam NOW. It may well be that no system is without its challenges to Academic Integrity. </p>

<p>What TexasTaxiMom wants, and has a right to expect,is a culture which supports integrity. And she has the fortitude to work to make it happen. It just makes my blood boil when she is accused of a vendetta. Really! But it calms me to feel the support from so many.</p>

96

<p>This is sort of off on a tangent here but yesterday I took my daughter to get her learner's permit at TXDOT. For those of you not in Texas, many districts have deep sixed the driver's ed, and parents must now purchase materials from the state, and a text book; keep a log of lessons and driving time; and of course do all the documentation at the DMV.</p>

<p>Being the honest, and quite frankly scared witless of putting children behind vehicles nilly willy, we show up with our logs and books and documentation. Many people "fudge" this part just to get their child behind the wheel. Since my daughter does not have a concealed handgun permit, pilot's license, divorce decree, INS card, voter's registration, DD2-14, vehicle title or the like, we brought the SS card, the birth certificate the proof of enrollment and for "school records" a report card.</p>

<p>The DPS Sgt. says that it MUST be a transcript, but then she couldn't find where it states that in any of the materials available to parents. Going back to the school to get one would mean an hour each way, very aggravating, but I <em>would</em> do it. Fortunately the transcripts should cut any day now, but because she is a freshman it is the first generated transcript. I am wondering just how a first semester freshman would accomplish this.....</p>

<p>At any rate the DPS Sgt. decides to accept the report card, but just this once. So I asked it it would be possible to either post this information in the driver's ed packets, on the web site, on the front of the building....or better yet send letters to the ten or so principals in the area to make them aware of this new change. That would certainly reduce the amount of stress and aggravation all around, particularly for the rural folks who aren't close to either the school or the DMV.</p>

<p>You would have thought I'd grown a second head, and then a bunch of eye rolling ensued. </p>

<p>So I ask you, is it just too crazy of an idea to leave it nicer for the next person? To spare them the aggravation by clarifying rules? After getting the same reaction from some people about implementing an honor code I wonder if the pay it forward concept is just to freakish nowdays?</p>

97

<p>woa, ttmom. Taking on the Board of Ed is one thing, but to even consider giving sound advice to the DMV is like trying to teach the USPS not to go postal. :D</p>

98

<p>I know. I feel like a freak. </p>

<p>So I ended up emailing the principal of my daughter's school and told him that when kids come in and as for a POE, to generate a transcript, too. This will of course eliminate the fun for the DMV clerks because at least our folks won't get turned away. </p>

<p>It's really quite simple. If you want people to bring a transcript, then say bring a transcript. But don't be surprised if folks get a bit testy when it says "school record" and then they bring in something that doesn't count.</p>

99

<p>"Many people "fudge" this part just to get their child behind the wheel."</p>

<p>Wow, what idiots! It never crossed my mind that anyone would risk their child's life and others' lives that way. Another example of how common sense isn't common.</p>

100

<p>I am partly laughing here from the past couple of posts but suffice it to say, TexasTaxiMom....been there done that too! Took my oldest D to get her permit on her 15th birthday which of course was a big deal which she had looked forward to a long time. There is a written test at the DMV and some documentation required. I had asked what documents over the phone well in advance of our appointment. We get there and I might have forgotten the details now but I had the birth certificate and you needed one other proof of who she is and I also had her SS number for the paper work but do not own the actual SS card but that was not required as one of the two proofs of who you are. A kid does not have many documents because she did not yet have a passport or a permit and our school has no IDs either. I only knew that I had come prepared with whatever I was told over the phone. One of the second documents you can have is an affadavit signed by a notary. I mentioned this and the young man behind the counter told me that we would have to go find a notary and come back another day. I only knew that I had whatever I was told over the phone and he was very nasty to me about that. Then if that were not enough and it looked like my D was gonna have to do the written test but come back another day to get a permit (is not near us either), he then does the vision screening on some little machine you look into and says that her peripheral vision is off. Kid is completely frazzled at this point because this guy was just very nasty and did not like that I knew what I was told on the phone and had retorts for me. He says she can have her eye doctor submit a form that says her vision is fine. So, I sent her in to take the written test (how she passed it after what seemed like a huge disappointement that he would not let her get it that day because of the notary thing) and then she passed it anyway. Then, lucky for us, dad is an eye doctor so I said I would call her eye doctor up to fax a report right away and of course he did immediately while we stood there. Meanwhile, a different worker came on duty during this time. I went over it all with her again and she said, NO PROBLEM, we have notaries RIGHT HERE in the DMV for this very purpose and the intern who had waited on us knew that. I reported to her what/how he had spoken to me...and then my D had an affadavit notarized and she got her permit. Had we only dealt with this DMV intern who was on a total power trip at this point, no can do. Was very annoying. I knew I had whatever I had been told to bring and this guy kept trying to tell me otherwise, yet knew all along that I could get an affadavit as stated right there in their DMV office. So, your post, just reminded me of that day several years ago. </p>

<p>TexasTaxiMom, we'd make quite a team!
Susan</p>