<p>S turned down Carnegie Mellon, Bucknell, U of Rochestor, SUNY Geneseo and Binghamton and took his name off waitlist at Tufts. He loves Gate.</p>
<p>You guys make no sense. Why apply to schools that are more competitive and less desirable to you? Look, if you're applying to Dartmouth and Colgate and like the latter more, one of three things will happen: (forgetting the ridiculously improbable for a moment) </p>
<ol>
<li>You get rejected from both (so applying to Dartmouth was pointless)</li>
<li>You get into both and chose Colgate (so applying to Dartmouth was pointless) </li>
<li>You only get into Colgate, but not Dartmouth (so applying to Dartmouth was pointless)</li>
</ol>
<p>Sure, maybe 1 in 10,000 times a kid gets into Dartmouth but not Colgate, but come on. If you're applying to Dartmouth, Midd, and Colgate, (as I am), you should like them in that order. Otherwise, you're wasting your time. Oh, and as for financial aid, their endowments also go in that order, so it's really unlikely that you'd get into Dartmouth and Colgate, but get better financial aid from Colgate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
If you're applying to Dartmouth, Midd, and Colgate, (as I am), you should like them in that order.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I certainly didn't like Middlebury better than Colgate. Now, Dartmouth, I'll grant you is a different story and a friend who worked in admissions once told me that 61% of Colgate was rejected or wait-listed at Dartmouth. That wasn't the case for Middlebury though where I only knew one person at Colgate out of ~ 20 who had applied and wasn't accepted at Middlebury too. I can't imagine it's changed that much since my time.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Oh, and as for financial aid, their endowments also go in that order, so it's really unlikely that you'd get into Dartmouth and Colgate, but get better financial aid from Colgate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From my experience, financial aid is much more of a case by case thing. Someone who is going to be an average student at Dartmouth may not have the school try that hard to get them. That same student may be in the top 20% of Colgate, though; so the school may stretch much more to try to get him to enroll.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You guys make no sense. Why apply to schools that are more competitive and less desirable to you?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Except for one person on this thread that chose Colgate over Dartmouth, I didn't really see any examples of what you're saying. Even if one school is nominally more selective than another, on an individual basis that is not necessarily how admissions are going to turn out; not to mention that applicants don't necessarily have a rank order when they apply until it becomes pertinent or their rank order changes from December to May.</p>
<p>I actually know someone who was accepted at Dartmouth and rejected at Colby. Schools are unpredictable.</p>
<p>Not only are school admissions unpredictable, but rankings are not always the most important factor in choosing a school. Plus, "rankings" can be very subjective, and how do you compare the national university list vs. the liberal arts college list? Is Amherst (#1 LAC) really better than Dartmouth (#11 National University)?</p>
<p>I chose between Colgate and USC (plus some other schools), and where I came from, no one had heard of Colgate and they thought USC was fantastic, whereas in New York, Colgate is much better thought of than USC. </p>
<p>So by which standard should a student choose their school? Name recognition (where?)? Ranking (which list?)? Endowment (overall or per student?)? Class size? Overall size? Activities available? Location? Most importantly, feeling when visiting campus and fit? There's so many factors that go into the decision that to imply a student MUST choose Dartmouth over Colgate because of ranking or selectivity is far too simplistic. That rankings, selectivity or perceived prestige are the "only" factor that should be considered is sad to me - hypothetically, would you rather be absolutely miserable at Dartmouth or have a fantastic 4 years at Colgate because it's a better fit for you?</p>
<p>I can say that Colgate's package was better than all of the schools my son was accepted to, except for Lafayette, where the package was basically identical. Some of the schools' packages were drastically inferior to Colgate's, some were close. However, in our son's case, financial aid was not the deciding factor...it simply allowed Colagte to be considered and not eliminated for financial reasons. The lure of Colgate, if I can kind of speak for my son, was the atmosphere at Colgate, the academic excellence and the closeness of the community. Also, I think that "rankings" helped my son include Colgate in his initial search. Not that it boiled down to the "highest" USNews ranked school, but that he knew he would get a challenging academic experience as well as all of the rest of what makes people love Colgate.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That wasn't the case for Middlebury though where I only knew one person at Colgate out of ~ 20 who had applied and wasn't accepted at Middlebury too. I can't imagine it's changed that much since my time.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>PR asks schools to fill out an overlap survey, and they include the results in their guides. According to the most recent PR guide, Colgate is listed as a school that Middlebury students "also look at and rarely prefer," while Middlebury is listed as a school that Colgate students "also look at and often prefer." It says in the preface to the guide that the schools themselves provide this information, although who knows for sure...</p>
<p>My daughter turned down Hamilton, Bates and Colby. She liked the other schools, but they are a bit too small for her taste. Loves Colgate!</p>
<p>People from my floor first year: </p>
<p>Middlebury, Colby, William & Mary; W/L Carelton, Williams; rejected Princeton
Amherst, Penn; rejected Harvard
Cornell; W/L Williams, Brown; rejected Amherst, Harvard
Tufts, UCLA; W/L Amherst
URochester
UVA
Cornell, Penn; W/L Dartmouth; rejected Princeton, Yale
Middlebury; W/L Dartmouth, Cornell
Tufts, Hamilton, Lehigh; W/L Wesleyan; rejected Amherst
Middlebury, Colby, Bucknell; rejected Dartmouth, Cornell, Yale
Cornell; rejected Princeton</p>
<p>
[quote]
People from my floor first year: </p>
<p>Middlebury, Colby, William & Mary; W/L Carelton, Williams; rejected Princeton
Amherst, Penn; rejected Harvard
Cornell; W/L Williams, Brown; rejected Amherst, Harvard
Tufts, UCLA; W/L Amherst
URochester
UVA
Cornell, Penn; W/L Dartmouth; rejected Princeton, Yale
Middlebury; W/L Dartmouth, Cornell
Tufts, Hamilton, Lehigh; W/L Wesleyan; rejected Amherst
Middlebury, Colby, Bucknell; rejected Dartmouth, Cornell, Yale
Cornell; rejected Princeton
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Out of curiosity, how long ago was that?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Out of curiosity, how long ago was that?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Last decade. </p>
<p>You really think Colgate is relatively a worse school now? The top 25%ile there still are on par score-wise with the top schools (Princeton, Dartmouth, Williams, Amherst) that they had a justifiable chance of hoping to be admitted.</p>
<p>The list gellino provides is not too surprising. Cornell has notoriously poor aid, so if these were FA students, Colgate was probably a no-brainer. The only example that raised my eyebrows was the kid accepted at Amherst and Penn, but again, we don't know all the circumstances in that one case.</p>
<p>I definitely don't see anyone turning down Williams or Amherst for Colgate today, unless they have a specific non-academic opportunity, like playing a sport, or perhaps a more personal reason, like carrying on a legacy tradition.</p>
<p>The other schools are similar enough to Colgate that a decision either way wouldn't be a surprise. Middlebury has a very liberal reputation and Colgate is more conservative, so social comfort probably also plays a part.</p>
<p>The Amherst, Penn acceptee was a football player, who seem to have a whole different set of criteria than other students; plus Penn was not considered as good a school back then as apparently it is now. Most of the ones who were accepted at Cornell don't know ahead of time where they're going to be accepted and once it came down to Cornell and Colgate decided that Cornell was really too big for them and they'll enjoy the more laid back atmosphere of Colgate more. </p>
<p>At least, at the time (not including football or hockey players), would say the approximate %s of acceptance of most common overlap schools were:</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, Williams, Amherst: 0%
Penn: 25%
Cornell, Wesleyan: 30%
Middlebury, Tufts: 90%
Lehigh, Bucknell, Hamilton, Colby: 100%</p>
<p>You understand how silly these anecdotal percentages are, right? Of course you associated with people who turned down these other schools for Colgate, but that says nothing about the actual overall "win" rates. You wouldn't very well run into someone who turned down Colgate for, say, Bucknell while strolling through your freshman dorm, would you? I didn't meet a single person at Middlebury who turned down Middlebury for Colgate. Does that mean that Middlebury's win rate vs. Colgate is 100%? </p>
<p>Put another way--let's say there were 1,000 overlaps between Colgate and Tufts in a given year. Of those 1,000 applicants, 500 were accepted at both schools (I'm using hypothetical numbers here). Of those 500, 100 matriculated at Colgate (20% win rate) and 400 matriculated at Tufts (80% win rate). While strolling through your freshman dorm, you encounter 9 kids who chose Colgate over Tufts and one kid that admitted that he was rejected by Tufts and ended up at Colgate. Does that mean that Colgate's win rate against Tufts is 90%? No, it doesn't. You'll never meet most of the kids who chose Tufts over Colgate because they didn't end up at Colgate. Most colleges hold their cross admit data very close to the chest.</p>
<p>^You completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Those percentages weren't win rates, but people who had also applied to those other schools that were accepted at those other schools. Obviously, anyone who was at Colgate chose it over any other school they were accepted to. What I meant was of the people at Colgate who had also applied to Middlebury, 90% of them were also accepted at Middlebury (in obvious addition to Colgate, where they were currently residing). Of those at Colgate that had also applied to Cornell, 30% were accepted at Cornell. Sorry for the confusion.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You completely misinterpreted what I was saying. Those percentages weren't win rates, but people who had also applied to those other schools that were accepted at those other schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's essentially boasting Colgate's win rate--people who were accepted at those other schools, but in the end chose Colgate over those other schools. That's ultimately what you're touting here. In Fall 2000, Middlebury posted to their website a powerpoint presentation that showed cross admit data for the class entering Fall 2000. They eventually realized what they'd done and took it off the site, so I can't quote exact numbers. I can tell you that Middlebury's win rate with Bowdoin was around 76%, and I believe it was similar for Colgate. Against Williams, Middlebury's win rate was 24%. That was 8 years ago and things may have changed since then, but that's the sort of data that schools have but keep to themselves.</p>
<p>First of all, I didn't say this was an official Colgate document, but an approximation by talking to classmates over the years; so I don't know where you got that idea. I do remember seeing that Middlebury presentation you're talking about; except I saw it about two years ago, not eight years ago.</p>
<p>Second, what I'm 'touting' here is not win rate, but rather how many people who chose Colgate that were also able to get into Middlebury. It has nothing to do with what all students viewed as more desirable on a grander scale. For example, you could have a 100 students in the class of 2010 at Colgate that applied to both Colgate and Middlebury with 90 of them that were accepted at Middlebury too. You could have 150 students in the class of 2010 at Middlebury that applied to Colgate too with 140 of them getting into Colgate. Therefore, the result of this would be 230 students total (140+90) that decided between Middlebury and Colgate with Middlebury having a win % of 61% (140/230). This still doesn't change the fact that 90 out of 100 at Colgate that applied to Middlebury were accepted to Middlebury; even if Colgate's win ratio was only 39%. This comparison is only ancillarily related to win rate. You have to be accepted at the school before you have a decision of where to enroll. Most likely, anyone who was accepted at Colgate was accepted at Middlebury and vice versa; regardless of which one was viewed as more desirable or had a higher win %.</p>
<p>Penn was a lousy school a decade ago..</p>
<p>^I don't know about lousy (and it's always had some highly respected grad programs), but its selectivity and class profile were somewhat lower than Cornell around the range of Colgate and Middlebury instead of close to Dartmouth and Brown, like apparently it is today. The class of '96 at Penn had a 47% acceptance rate, which was significantly higher than Cornell, Colgate and Middlebury. It's amazing how things can shift and how cities have been cleaned up in the last decade.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I can tell you that Middlebury's win rate with Bowdoin was around 76%, and I believe it was similar for Colgate.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is untrue as Colgate results were not published in that study, which only consisted of Ivy and NESCAC schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
This is untrue as Colgate results were not published in that study, which only consisted of Ivy and NESCAC schools.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Nope. It included other schools, including Carleton, Haverford, etc.</p>