<p>With so many students (and their parents) trying so hard to get into the elite schools, what does this translate to in terms of jobs? How much difference does it make, realistically, in terms of income and marketability, if the graduate has a degree from an elite school vs an 'average' school?</p>
<p>This issue has been debated here ad nauseam. Various studies are cited as "irrefutable proof" either that elite degrees are not worth the extra money or that people who graduate from big name schools have more successful careers. Even if one believes that students who attend elite schools have an advantage, the truth (as I see it) is that there is no way to say definitively whether elite schools make people successful or successful people gain admission to elite schools. I chose my well-ranked college not because I had any illusions that it would place me in a higher earning bracket somewhere in but because I know I will be happy here during these 4 very important years of my life.</p>
<p>Elite colleges are like hybrid cars. They're nice, but the money never finds its way back into your hands as a result of attending. It's all about what you do with your degree, not the name on it.</p>
<p>My dream used to be to go to Dartmouth, and my Dad would always yell at me and tell me what a waste of money it would be, and ask why Dartmouth was so much better than the state school. I got so mad at him, but the truth was he was kinda right.</p>
<p>There are essentially two competing sets of studies that provide the (limited) factual basis for this debate. One, in the late 90s, basically argued that kids with equivalent SATs (as a proxy for intelligence) had the same career incomes, regardless of which colleges they attended. The other, over the past few years, claims that there are (modest) economic benefits for equivalent students to attending a top-ranked college vs. attending a college several ranks lower, although the benefits get much smaller as the colleges get closer in prestige.</p>
<p>To some extent, I think you have to look at what a particular kid wants to do. There are probably advantages in going to Harvard if you want to be a lawyer or investment banker, but not so many if you want to be a high school teacher, doctor, or engineer. If you want to be an English professor, Harvard will give you a lot of advantages Arizona State won't, but you might be better off going to Middlebury as an undergraduate. If you are the kind of person who will build a career schmoozing with college classmates, Harvard will be great.</p>
<p>By and large, the elite colleges are a luxury product. It's easy to point to nice things they have that cheaper colleges don't, but much harder to translate those things into earnings expectations.</p>
<p>This is part of the reason our son chose Northeastern. He is interested in the career at the end of school, doesn't see college as the end product. Their coop program will help him achieve his end goal. Of course, younger sis wants to be a teacher..lol.</p>
<p>Another way to look at this question is to ask about the benefits of being a typical student at an elite college vs being a star student at a somewhat less selective college. It is true that some firms and businesses only recruit at the more elite colleges, Goldman-Sachs and Google for example. But even here, the average students are unlikely to get past the first interview and the many more "qualified" graduates ahead of them.</p>
<p>Slide down the elite admissions food chain just a bit and a student will be attending another fine university and can be a star student, catching the eye of both professors and the department. These students are far more likely to be invited to participate in meaningful research under the mentorship of a professor. I know this is true having toiled in academe for more than 30 years now. Our time is precious and we are able to entrust only the best of our undergrads in ongoing research projects or devote significant time mentoring students in their independent research endeavors.</p>
<p>And there are benefits like induction into honoraries like Phi Beta Kappa, accelerated BS/MS, BS/PhD/BS/MD programs, recipient of Departmental honors like specifically endowed academic scholarships, and invitations to participate in other college programs reserved for its best students. A friend's son at JHU was invited to a summer program which began grooming its best student for participation in national/international scholar competitions like the Rhodes and Marshall scholar programs.</p>
<p>And I haven't even mentioned the out-of-pocket costs of attendence which is often a factor for many students.</p>
<p>I have periodically served on the Department's graduate admissions committee and can assure you that an outstanding grad with outstanding recommendations and undergraduate record which includes a meaningful research component is extremely competetive with the graduates of more "prestigious" colleges and universities and are far more likely to gain admission that a student from said institutions who have merely fulfilled their graduation requirements from the college catalogue offerings.</p>
<p>And of course we all realize that after that first post-grad job offer, it is what you do that matters, not the name on the diploma.</p>
<p>Keep in mind too that I am not talking about a student having to decide between a Columbia and a SUNY-Fredonia, rather a choice between wonderful universities like a Columbia and a URochester or a Tufts.</p>
<p>There are numerous studies that have shown that top kids will do as well at any school. It's the person not the school. However, there has been evidence that not so top students can get a greater benefit for going to a super selective school. There was a Harvard study some years ago, showing that URMs at Harvard did much better in terms of earning power going to Harvard than like students going to other schools. I do not think that is limiting to URMs.
There are many amenities in going to these top colleges. Your peers tend to be top drawer and things tend to be set up for high achievement as there are so few kids with learning issues at these schools. There is the "Cocktail" party and "namedrop" value, the wonderful alumni networks and events, alumni clubs, name recognition, and envy you get. However, translating that into earnings is not so direct. There are some fields of study where a degree from such schools do not carry much weight. For teaching, for instance, the public schools tend to hire from known teaching programs from their state schools. I know in one school district more than 90% of the teachers graduated from a group of state teachers' colleges, and this is not unusual. There is comraderie among state U folks, and there are more of them than there are Harvard grads.</p>
<p><keep in="" mind="" too="" that="" i="" am="" not="" talking="" about="" a="" student="" having="" to="" decide="" between="" columbia="" and="" suny-fredonia,="" rather="" choice="" wonderful="" universities="" like="" urochester="" or="" tufts.=""></keep></p>
<p>I've never heard of SUNY-Fredonia, so I'm not sure I get your point on this last statement.</p>
<p>With all these people talking about Harvard, I feel a little sheepish just asking this, but this is our situation:</p>
<p>My son was homeschooled, and started attending the local cc in 10th grade. He's supposed to be in 12th grade right now and will have 36 hours (of core curr. classes and foreign language) by the end of this semester. He is extremely intelligent and an independent thinker, and is at the top of all his classes (even though 2 years youngers). I think if he really wanted to, he could have a good chance at getting accepted almost anywhere, because his writing is so stunning that he really catches the attention.</p>
<p>But, we've never really considered any 'elite' college due to their prohibitive cost. I don't want him to depend totally on scholarships. I hope that he does get some scholarships, but not as many scholarship options are open to transfer students, so I don't want him making plans that depend on scholarships, because what if they don't come thru. And, we have one of the best state schools virtually in our back yard - UT Austin -which he really loves due to the political activism, in addition to the academics. And, he loves the city of Austin. So, the plan is for him to transfer to UT Austin in fall 2007, with around 40 hours.</p>
<p>What's happening now is that he has a job working as a technical consultant at Best Buy, and is doing so well that he has an opportunity to move up into the Geek Squad. The Geek Squad is computer repair, and pays $12-$18 per hour. Not bad for an 18-yo high school senior (beats flipping burgers!), plus it's great experience.</p>
<p>So now he is wondering if it would be 'so bad' to just attend college part-time, and continue working. He wants a well-rounded life. We're not rich and he is enjoying the independence of having some $$. He wants to buy a car. But, most of all, he is feeling a sense of fulfillment from his job. He knows that $18 won't sound like a lot of money years down the road, so he still does want to get a degree. But, he also doesn't want to put his entire life on hold and follow the normal 'college track.' </p>
<p>He's never done things the 'normal' way. He's always tended to do things out of sequence. That's one of the reasons we homeschooled. He taught himself computer programming and webdesign at age 14, for example. His stats are not 'standard' as in they don't fit the mold, but they are stellar in certain key ways. This is a double-edged sword, in a way. If he can convey the uniqueness of his high school years, I'm confident that any admissions officer will appreciate that most of his accomplishments were completely self-motivated, and that's got to count for something. But, at the same time, he would have to be viewed in that light, since his stats just are not the same as the typical high school graduate. We prefer to think of this as a plus, but we are also realistic about not assuming that he will get admitted to some elite school that is looking for certain criteria.</p>
<p>Anyway, we've learned that UTSA, part of the UT system but not 'high-ranked' like UT Austin, is considered a 'rising star.' Supposedly the only reason it is not so high-ranked is that it is a relatively new school and still has plenty of room on campus, so they don't turn anyone away. At first glance this looks like it's not a good school, but the simple reason that they accept all qualified students and UT Austin does not, is that UTSA has plenty of room for them, whereas UT Austin is overcrowded. UTSA is in its expanding phase. Their selling point is that they have a top-notch faculty who provide lots of personal attention. I'm wondering whether he might even get a better education, in some ways.</p>
<p>There are several advantages to attending UTSA, at least for a year or 2. We would save a bundle because he can live at home (and he's not sure if he's ready to move out yet, anyway, so he is ok with another year at home)...he could attend part-time and keep his job...it is a LOT cheaper, and he might even qualify for some scholarships that he might not get at UT Austin. Also, UTSA's website says that they are determined to become a top-notch university, and they are hiring top-notch faculty. They have just built new sceince buildings and are expanding their science/engineering programs. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.utsa.edu/today/2006/02/bse.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.utsa.edu/today/2006/02/bse.cfm</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.utsa.edu/today/2005/11/tobin.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.utsa.edu/today/2005/11/tobin.cfm</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.utsa.edu/today/2004/07/30.cfm%5B/url%5D">http://www.utsa.edu/today/2004/07/30.cfm</a></p>
<p>So, I'm not comparing Harvard and UT. I already know that UT Austin holds its own quite well. But, I am wondering what would be the effect of having a degree from a 'regular' state school vs a highly-ranked state school.</p>
<p>We're still planning for him to transfer to UT Austin even if he does attend UTSA for a year, but I'm looking at this possibility in case next year he has a serious girlfriend here in SA, or for whatever reason, wants to just save $$ and complete his studies here.</p>
<p>Any comments or advice would be appreciated!</p>
<p>He's not sure yet what his major will be, but at this point he's considering computer science, linguistics, psychology, and computational linguistics.</p>
<p>More kids take the path that your son is taking Lealdragon, than those who go away to colleges, and certainly than those who go to selective colleges. Since he is not sure what he wants to do, it may not be a bad idea for him to stick around and get his basic classes completed locally and save the money for , say grad school. The only drawback all of this has is that he is missing the experience of going away from home and living with other kids of his ability level and coping with that situation. An advantage of the higher ranked schools is that they do have more motivated and able students. You can be the star of the local and community colleges and not get a glimpse of what is truly out there.
My son is working at a job similar to yours after 3 years at a very rigorous tech school. He shakes his head at comments that he hears from kids going to local school that think they are so smart and knowledgeable from the job and their computer courses. He understands that they have no clue what 's out there, and he does, having gone to CMU and seen the brain pools and abilities there. He has absolutely no illusion as to where his abilities and knowledge are in comparision to some kids in these top programs. You really get this knowlege only by living it, and better you get it young than walking into the marketplace or grad school thinkings you so well prepped when you are the ugly duckling in the group.</p>
<p>ShadowofAnEnigma wrote:
[quote]
I chose my well-ranked college not because I had any illusions that it would place me in a higher earning bracket somewhere in but because I know I will be happy here during these 4 very important years of my life.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That is exactly what my kids did. The conversation as to which college might yield more earning power or a "better" career, never came up. I think it is the person who achieves their goals and success, not the name of the school they came from. The reason they chose more challenging schools had more to do with that these places were the right environment for them to pursue their education. These schools fit who they are and were filled with a peer group of kids with similar motivations to keep my kids challenged in the way that they crave. </p>
<p>I think your son should pursue whichever school path fits his interests, needs, desires and goals. I am sure he can reach his goals no matter where he goes to school but it is more of a matter of which type of school experience fits what he wants in a school. The rest of the peer group is a factor. Living at home vs. away is a factor, and so on.</p>
<p>Soozievt-I agree that the choice should ultimately come down to where a student THINKS he/she will be happiest and most fulfilled. I think where many students have a problem is by thinking that they can be happy and fulfilled at only one college. This can lead to bitter disappointment if they fail to gain admission or if reality does not live up to their idealized vision of their one and only. And of course a student can never KNOW where she/he will be happiest.</p>
<p>Kinda like marriage!</p>
<p>Lealdragon, I think your son's situation is a different than the great majority of kids his age that are on this site. I think he needs to do some indepth research now on careers/interests in computer science (he may have already done this) including visits to UT Austin, SMU (look up The Guild at SMU) and maybe Rice. He needs to talk to profs, grad students, undergrads.<br>
He has a lot of college credits already, and I'm sure he doesn't want to waste these. On the other hand, I would imagine that he doesn't want to close any doors quite this early. My guess is that he will see that UT is still his best choice, but it would be a shame to learn of a specific program that would be perfect for him, but he has to give up a lot of his credits in order to transfer into that program. He may also recognize that he will need to go to grad school, and staying in SA may be his best bet.
Anyway, because he is interested in a "technical" field, it behooves him to do some specific program oriented research, now that, I'm assuming, his basics are complete.</p>
<p>Your son has already basically done the "go to hometown college, get job, save money by living at home" kind of thing by what he is doing now. And from what you say, he is going to have to apply as a transfer student anyway, not a college freshman. </p>
<p>It seems the two issues here are lack of the away from home freshman college experience and prestige/connection issue of school attended after he graduates and how that will affect his future career/life plans. As to the first issue, your son has already chosen a different path (homeschool) than most kids and been okay with it, maybe even thrived. Has he missed having traditional high school experiences, has he longed to travel, spread his wings, go to new and exciting places (Austin is exciting for many people), have few responsibilities and just be a normal kid? If he has, then the current job/money issue may be swaying him in a direction that would not be best for him. On the other hand, if he has been content with his current situation and expressed few regrets, then there may be no reason to change things. While the exhilaration of going away from home and being on your own is just what many kids need to get to the next phase of their life, it isn't the best for everyone. </p>
<p>Students that go to local colleges for whatever reason and then transfer for their last two years to a college away from home still have a degree from that college and get the same bump from the reputation as a 4 year student. And, ultimately they get to "grow" away from home, they just have a couple more years of life experiences to help them. </p>
<p>Don't let UTSAs marketing sway you. They are trying to change things there but you need to be careful, especially if he ends up doing four years there. Some depts are coming along nicely but in others there is a lot of infighting, lack of agreement on who to hire due to personality conflicts and jeolousy issues. These can definately affect the majors in that department but not so much for those taking the core courses. That being said, I understand it is not that uncommon for students in SA area who just miss the 10% cutoff and don't get UT to do 1-2 years at UTSA and then transfer into UT- Austin. Still go up to Austin on the weekend and party with their friends. </p>
<p>Since he is going to have to apply as a transfer already, will one more year worth of courses hurt him? Will it give him more time to consider other schools besides UT? Can he do this and not be swayed just by the current income so he doesn't drop out of college only because he is making what he considers a good income, which it will be with no wife, kids or mortgage/rent payments. Based on what you know of him to this point if he meets someone in San Antonio he is committed to, would that mean transfer to Austin would automatically go out the window? Has his success to this point been more because he chose to push himself in certain directions or has he relied on people (parents, coworkers, minister) who have guided him and opened doors for him (not a bad thing)? If he has predominately charted his own course and you feel that is always the way things will be, then the prestige of his degree probably won't matter as much. </p>
<p>Maybe you could find a school in driving distance that allows overnight visits or where his friends go to school. Send him off to a couple of those so he at least can experience a college campus away from home. Then, see how he feels and go from there.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the good advice!</p>
<p>OK, so here is my next question: how do I know how much to encourage him to reach higher, without pusing him?</p>
<p>I am acutely aware of what just happened to his best friend (getting pushed to go to Rice and then failing) and I don't want to make the same mistake. I don't want to push my son even to UT, if he's truly not ready. I don't want to kick him out of the house. Sometimes I think he is more ready than he thinks and the best thing for him would be to move out on his own. He is stagnating in some ways because most of his friends are not college-bound. He wants to meet new people (with a future) and going off to college is obviously the best way to do that. He has an extremely high IQ and tends to excel in whatever he sets out to do, but emotionally he is sometimes very strong while other times fragile. So it's not a real clear-cut thing to know just what is best for him. I want him to decide for himself if/when he is ready to proceed.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I don't want to be TOO nonchalant and not encourage him enough. I do want to draw out the strength in him. Funny, he swings from wanting to apply for PLAN II (because it is most prestigious and he doesn't feel challenged enough in his current classes) to going to UTSA and taking his time. Just going to UT (but not PLAN II) might be the middle-of-the-road approach.</p>
<p>Anyway I am struggling with knowing how much to encourage him to stretch himself without pushing.</p>
<p>Also, I am acutely aware that homeschooling has its advantages and disadvantages. My son is capable of a depth of thought not often found in kids his age, which I attribute partially to having been homeschooled, so that's one of the strengths. But, he lacks experience in 'academic rigor' - having a huge load of work. That's another reason in favor of taking it slowly, to give him time to adjust. I think that's why his friend failed - he is extremely intelligent but made such a drastic leap, from no school to Rice. My son is not in a hurry because he could go part-time and still graduate in 3 years. Anyway I want to be realistic about his strengths and weaknesses.</p>
<p>Well, I know I'm harping over the same ground, BUT, I think in depth visits at some possible schools, especially UT, will help answer these questions. Your post makes it sound like he is a little apprehensive (OK, that's understandable) about the "big change", and what he may need is something to get so excited about that he can get past that apprehension. If he isn't excited about either the program that he would be involved in, or just excited about the prospect of being away from home - if he is nervous about both - then his chances of success become less.
I can see how the friend's experience is coloring his thinking - and being homeschooled, he probably doesn't have as many examples of successful college transition as kid who went to a huge high school would have, but he must know some homeschooled kids who did well - I know homeschooled kids are often very successful in college. Perhaps he has other friends he can visit at college?
I know I sound like a one trick pony, but I think this is a case where a few carefully researched, structured visits could make a big difference in his planning process, and help him make the best decision for him - even if that decision turns out to be staying home.</p>
<p>Given that your son has been homeschooled, can you find some compromise school between staying in the comfort zone of home and a non-demanding part time schedule at UTSA and going to the largest school in the country? Those are two very different extremes. </p>
<p>Texas State is large but an honors program there would put him in a somewhat smaller program with some bright kids (maybe not Plan II caliber but bright non the less), allow him to live in a dorm and definately net some merit money. He could transfer to Austin from there as well as UTSA. Or what about North Texas?</p>
<p>Have you run the calculators to determine your EFC? Can you swing that? Remember, he can work Geek Squad in a lot of different places. If any of this is a possibility, try looking at Trinity, SMU (honors), TCU (honors again), Southwestern. Yes, these are preppy schools with a lot of wealthy kids with a sense of entitlement, designer clothes and designer cars. But, they have scholarship money, are looking for bright different kids, and they do have a segment of their population that doesn't fit the stereotypes who are getting good educations. He may not get merit money but it could be worth a try. And, he could do Trinity and still live at home. And the University of Tulsa is a private school with a friendly and nurturing campus with a very active Psychology dept (don't know about his other majors.). Also, look at the scholarships at Tulane. He may have a good shot for money there and that school is actively pushing their kids into community involvement. </p>
<p>If he does go for UT and gets into Plan II, he can always reject it or drop out of that program if it doesn't work out for him. He is not locked into that choice so I say if he is going to apply to Austin, let him try for Plan II and see what happens. </p>
<p>Have him email some professors in the fields he thinks he is interested in at some colleges other than Austin. He may get excited if he gets good responses. Have him contact admissions at a few schools and see if they can put you in touch with any homeschool students or recent alum from their university. If he can't make these contacts on his own, maybe he isn't ready for UT. But more than anything else, I agree with Cangel. Get him to some other schools. Trinity will plan a whole day for him with meetings with professors, etc. That's a start at being stimulated by other bright students. Then, find a couple more out of town for him to spend time at. When has actually had the chance to experience different colleges, he will be better able to set his own path within the financial constraints of the family budget. About all you can do now is help provide him opportunities ASAP that will expand his knowledge base of colleges so he can find something that excites him and make a more informed decision and give you some comfort that he is not just settling if he chooses the UTSA route.</p>
<p>Wow! I am so appreciative of this forum and the wonderful people here giving such wonderful advice!</p>
<p>He went to the UT Engineering/Honors Colloquium a couple of months ago, and I thought for sure that living in a dorm for a few days at the college of his choice would get him excited and inspired, and it did in some ways - that's when he got excited about PLAN II - but in other ways it backfired, mainly because the kids did not go to bed until 2, 3 or even 4 am, then had to get up at 7, and my son was just completely exhausted after 4 days of 3-4 hours sleep. I know (and he knows) that that was not representative of what college life is like, but it sure did turn him off of living in a dorm. He said it was just completely chaotic and noisy. Granted, these kids did not have to study - it was summer and this was supposed to be fun. But the whole event ended up being more stressful than anything.</p>
<p>That's a great idea to just have him visist different schools and see what gets him inspired. Also I never would have thought of him actually emailing profs at other universities (or any universities!) - wow, what great ideas!</p>
<p>I hadn't really thought about taking him to schools if we weren't seriously considering them, but now I will, so that he can have a sense of comparison and choice. My son excels beautifully when he is passionate about something, but never when he is pressured. So what I need to do is expose him to different schools so he can find his passion. Got it.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all the ideas!</p>
<p>And who knows, one of those "not seriously considering" schools may turn out to be "the one" because of something you and he were unaware of that makes an impact on him. Good Luck and Happy Travelling</p>