What do all the performance grads do?

<p>I was having a discussion offline with another member here and some points were raised about scarcity of positions in major symphonies (and even second tier ones now that I think about it) and it started me thinking about how MANY performance degrees are churned out each year. I don't know the numbers, or where to find them, but it seems like there must be way more degreed performers than there are performance jobs. There may be 500 kids graduating in a given year on your instrument nationally, and only 4 jobs becoming available.</p>

<p>We've all seen the articles (and likely joined in discussions) on how if music really is your passion you WILL find a way to make a living at it. But a living doing what? I know approximately a half dozen people who were performance majors. One is sitting full time in a symphony orchestra, one is doing half teaching half gig work, one or two others are teaching, and a couple as far as I know are out of music.</p>

<p>A couple questions in particular come to mind:
- Does anybody know what percentage of performance grads are actually performing as their primary avocation (not teaching with a little performance mixed in)?
- And related to that, for each instrument, there seems to be a half dozen programs nationally whose graduates end up filling 75% of the positions (especially for smaller sections). What becomes of the performance majors that go to lesser programs? There has to be thousands of them.</p>

<p>What exactly do all these performance grads do? Or do I have this all wrong?</p>

<p>This sounds like the same exact conversation we have in academia about “what do all those PhD’s end up doing? There certainly aren’t enough tenure-track positions for all of them.” In our child’s case, he only applied to top-tier programs. if he doesn’t get into a top program, he won’t be a musician. this is what smart academics do – there is no point to going into debt for a PhD at a program that isn’t in the top five or top ten of institutions in your particular field. You’re absolutely right – MOST of the jobs go to the people from the top schools. </p>

<p>“What exactly do all these performance grads do?”</p>

<p>well…my D went to Europe . She and her boyfriend now have contracts at the same opera house. With the shrinking market in the US, many need to go abroad to find full time work in classical music. (The Met is the only opera house in the US that offers year long contracts). Here in the US, she was able to make a good living teaching and performing without having to take a non music day job. But she wanted to perform full time. </p>

<p>BTW: Unlike instrumentalists opera singers come out of a MUCH broader spectrum of educational experiences.</p>

<p>I found a lengthy old thread on this subject. Thanks @Glassharmonica on recommending google rather than CC for searching! <a href=“http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-and-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html”>http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/460187-how-many-music-and-voice-performance-majors-find-jobs.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I heard a fantastic violin soloist last weekend, really top-notch, performing Piazzolla’s Four Seasons with a local chamber orchestra. His “day job” is concertmaster with the local ballet orchestra, where he’s concurrently doing the Stravinsky concerto this week. I’ve seen him before as an orchestral and chamber player, but not realized how fantastic he was a soloist, technically and musically. So naturally I looked up his grad school when I got home: Temple University. Not Curtis, Juilliard, CIM, NEC. So I’d say it is possible to make a career in music coming from a second-tier school. That said, there are plenty of Curtis and Juilliard grads who leave the industry altogether-- just as many other majors deviate from the career path they picked at 18.</p>

<p>This has been discussed a lot, and the reality is that many, many more kids major in performance than there is the likelyhood of them making a career in music,that is a fact, and in some ways it always has been true. There are statistics that talk about there being 15000 music degrees issued each year in the US alone (I assume that is BM and BA combined, including composition, academic music,etc)…it is amazing given how tough it is to make in music, how many schools have added performance programs (MIT in recent years, other schools), in some ways it seems to go against supply and demand, that is for sure. There are programs that have low or no audition standards, for example, and it is not surprising people ask what kids from there will do. </p>

<p>And that leaves out the surge in musicians, not just from traditional places like Europe, but the flood coming from Asia as well (Korea and China, and to a certain extent Japan). This comes with many traditional employers, like symphony orchestras, experiencing financial hard times. When a position opens up in a big orchestra, like the NY Phil or Philadelphia et al, they will have a lot of people auditioning for that position, and those happen rarely, in part because a lot of musicians hang on into their 70’s and even 80’s. Other jobs, like Broadway pit orchestra jobs, have dwindled, and movie music has shifted mostly to eastern europe where wage rates are low. </p>

<p>And yes, if you look at the numbers of even kids graduating from places like Juilliard and Curtis and so forth, if you track it over time it often is an eye opener, I believe at graduation something like 50% end up not even trying to go into music or whatever they studied, and within 10 years, I believe it pushes close to 90% who aren’t in music in what they studied (some go on into arts admin and such, which is related)…</p>

<p>It is why people on here who know that world try to be realistic about what it is like, that even if you get into a Juilliard or Curtis et al, that there are no guarantees. There are people who believe getting into one of those programs is gonna make them a star, and they end up really disillusioned when they get into the real world, in the strings world many of them think they are going to be the next great soloist, and then find out a)that is next to impossible b)isn’t what it is held out to be and c) because they focused on that and have an ego to go along with it, don’t get along with others. </p>

<p>Okay, so why then do kids go into it? Hopefully, because they love music for the right reasons and want to give it their best shot at trying to be in it. Going in assuming you will be a soloist or will be in a major orchestra off the bat is problematic, being the best you can be is one thing, but it also is shooting for the moon and not thinking about what gravity will do, so to speak. The kids who have the best chance of making it IMO are the ones who have the attitude like they want to make music, be able to live, and are open and willing to looking at all avenues, while recognizing it is difficult all along. My answer would be that if you are going into music, if you think of a specific outcome, you likely will find disappointment and failure, and while no degree guarantees success, arts have never been particularly easy. In a sense, going into music has some of the same characteristics that entrepeneurs have, which is they realize how difficult what they are doing is, they realize there are no guarantees, yet they are willing to risk failure to get their dreams. The person who majors in accounting to get that solid job is probably pretty unlikely to create the next big thing, whereas the person who dreams, who leaps into it, very well might. One thing you cannot be as an entrepeneur is be afraid to fail, most do, several times, before hitting it big, and with musicians, they will fail many times, too, won’t get past the audition, won’t have a steady job, and like the entrepeneur, they work towards making their own luck, all while looking at the goal of ‘making it’. </p>

<p>So what do performance majors do? They hustle, they network, they audition for jobs, they create their own careers. If it doesn’t work out, they still have a college degree, whether it is instrumental or voice they have gained a lot of skills that would be useful to any employer, and to be honest, as a hiring manager, seeing someone who dedicated themself to music like that, went through everything they do, would be more attractive then the kid who took the straight and easy path (usually laid out by a parent), if I had a kid who majored in finance or accounting I would probably lean towards the kid with the music degree; in IT, there are more than a few ex performance and music majors:). They always have options, and the experience of heading for their dreams, working towards them, is experience you may not get following a straight and true path <em>shrug</em>. </p>

<p>To be honest, if someone looks at a performance degree and their first thought is how likely it is to get a job, I would recommend thinking about something else. While I don’t exactly encourage delusional thinking or a delusion that this is easy, I don’t, if worries about getting a job is that strong a factor, then no matter how good they are, they should stay away from performance, because in a sense I think that will end up becoming a self fulfilling prophesy, that they will fail because they always have that idea of easy failure in the front of their mind and it will block them, rather than have being a musician first with the though of ‘what can I do if it doesn’t work out’ always at the back of their mind, big difference. One of the things others have pointed out a lot is that often performance majors end up in other fields, but still make music, play in smaller orchestras part time, teach, play in ensembles non professionally, the music is always with them, even if they don’t make it a career as such. If a kid studies fine arts, painting, but ends up as a high end real estate broker, but paints for their own enjoyment, is that a bad thing? It is the same with with music, even if they don’t end up playing in an orchestra or whatever, it is always with them, and I think it also gives them life skills few courses of study do.</p>

<p>I do think far too many kids go into music with stars in their eyes and end up disappointed, I think that music schools and programs have way, way oversold demand, I do think if there is something else someone thinks they may want to do it may be better and easier to go after that rather than the road of being a musician, but I also think it is a road worth taking for the sake of taking it, that as long as the kid understands how hard it is, has a love for it, and is willing to go for it, that they won’t be irrevocably hurting themselves, either, which is one of the biggest myths of these days, that trying and failing is unacceptable, a disaster that will wreck your whole life, etc…</p>

<p>I do like that most of the conservatories that my S looked at had a required course for seniors in “entrepreneurship” or something similar. Professional musicians have to be able to create opportunities for themselves and operate as their own small business. I work with quite a few professional singers here in London and they all cobble together various gigs - short-term opera contracts, studio work, choral section leader/soloist, teaching, etc. Luckily, a city like London has many opportunities, but it is still a difficult and uncertain way to earn a living. </p>

<p>megpmom, somehow I had no idea you were in the UK!</p>

<p>momzie,
I am curious what you mean by the top 5 PhD programs in your field. For one thing many PhD programs are funded so there is no going into debt. My son has just been admitted into grad programs. He did not apply to the top 5 ranked schools for a variety of reasons. But graduates from the programs he did apply to and was accepted at have gone on to great positions. For those who do not know this and who may be reading this thread the National Resource Council has a ranking of PhD programs based on a wide range of statistics and data which includes things like placement and how other people in the field view the program.</p>

<p>Musicprint’s answer is spot on. Also because many people reading this forum have HS seniors and undergraduates I would be hesitant to tell a parent that if their child was motivated to do music but was not yet able to get accepted into a top conservatory that they should discourage them. A lot of growth occurs in the college years and it is not easy to predict who will emerge with something unique and special to offer. It saddens me when parents discourage children from pursuing something they want because the parent is making a judgement call about their child’s ability.</p>

<p>My son who is going to graduate school next year was hardly a prodigy or even a top student. In fact he was quite behind in his field when he entered college. But determination, a love of the material and a lot of hard work has resulted in him overcoming his deficits and rising to a point where he has a shot at becoming very successful in his field. Nobody could have predicted that. So I do think it is important for parents to not “kill dreams” out of fear. If a child doesn’t make it the skills they learned trying will serve them well in other areas of their life.</p>

<p>Megpmom hit the key concept: uncertainty. A performance degree can open up a world of possibilities. But at some point, many will begin to question whether the hours of practice are worth the level of uncertainty that comes with a life of musical performance and entrepreneurship. I think as people age-out and start to think about family life, the issue becomes even more pressing.</p>

<p>My son will be completing a double major–not because he was thinking ahead to job possibilities or being practical, but because he had passion for both areas. However, his choice will allow him another facet for earning a living while still pursuing performance opportunities. That said, he is proceeding ahead with grad school for music. At this point in his life, he would like to get as much training as possible and go as far as he can with a career in music. StacJip said it well–we would never dream of discouraging him in any of his pursuits. One thing that I wanted to point out is that many college professors also have extensive performance opportunities in their positions–even though it may not look like they are in a ‘performance’ career. So even though it might not appear like a performance career (such as symphony position or touring artist), performance is still a large part of the job.</p>

<p>Good thoughts all around.</p>

<p>I think a couple of you hit upon my intent in originally asking the questions I did. It’s wasn’t about whether my child should do this, or the usual parental double-life of encouraging your child to pursue their dreams, while privately in your head your asking “you want to do what?”, but rather to look at the supply side of things. Some of the numbers that musicprnt threw out are staggering. One has to wonder sometimes to what extent supply is driving demand, rather than the other way around. But as some of you have correctly pointed out, it’s not a good thing to stop someone from pursuing their dream either. I’m not sure what the answer is. Probably, as in most things, indulge your dreams while your young and you can and see where they take you.</p>

<p>I think it’s important for a young music student to go into this with their eyes open. Students should try to learn about what a typical career for a performing arts grad looks like right now. That being said, the market for performers is constantly in a state of flux. You can just be sure that where and how musicians find work 5-6 years from now will be different as to where and how musicians find work now. </p>

<p>I want to add to something StacJip said, about not prematurely cutting off a kid’s dreams because, for example, they didn’t get into a top program. It really raises a fundamental question, about knowing if someone is ‘good enough’ to attempt a career in music, and like most things in music, there aren’t hard and fast rules, it all depends on the kind of music, the student and their unique needs/makeup.</p>

<p>For example, should a parent say “you didn’t get into one of the top conservatories, so forget music?”…the answer to this is nuanced, as StacJip said. With some instruments, like brass and woodwinds, a student might not be quite good enough for one of the ‘top’ programs, whatever that is, but be able to go to a slightly less competitive program with a good teacher, work hard, catch up and go to grad school. I am nowhere near an expert on voice, but given how voice students develop later (i.e you don’t have 8 year old voice prodigies who can sing like adults, it is physically impossible, it isn’t on the piano or violin), it may be possible to go that route and make it into a good grad program (again, this is admittedly where I don’t know voice as well as instrumental).</p>

<p>On the other hand, with something like violin or piano, it is a lot harder, because the level of competition is such, and they start so early, that making it up in undergrad may not be possible, even if the kid practices 10 hours a day. The maturation process on violin and piano starts very, very young, so if a student is not there at audition time, it could be they cannot catch up…it also of course depends on how much they miss it by, and why they were rejected, if it happened that the schools they applied to had only a few openings and a ton of really good applicants, it could be luck of the draw; so how far they missed by (which of course is very, very difficult to judge) and why they missed is important. One tool might be to have the kid see a top level teacher at a top program, and ask for a paid assessment, and see what comes back. If they are talking basic issues, like bad intonation on the violin, or lack of musical understanding, it may tell you it wasn’t a near miss, on the other hand, if the evaluator says they are playing well, but have some things to polish, it makes a big difference.</p>

<p>Another test is, where did the student get in? If they fail at all the ‘tippy top schools’ but get into those in the next tier down, it is very different than someone who got into a program that is generally considered not very competitive…</p>

<p>The whole question is relative, in other words, and it is hard to discern the relations. If it looks like a kid just missed, they may do great with a great teacher at a slightly less than best school, or they may take a gap year and get into X next year.It is true there is more time now in one sense, in that a lot of music students go on to get master’s degrees, but the problem is that the level of admittance to undergrad is so high, that the level to get into grad school also has gone sky high, if you are competing agianst someone who got into a top program for undergrad, you prob will be competing with them on the grad level as well, so you need to be able to ‘catch up’ to get into grad school.</p>

<p>I will add that as negative as I can be, I also don’t think that if you encourage a kid to try music even if it doesn’t look like they have much chance, that it is necessarily going to put them behind the 8 ball. I would be worried if the kid didn’t get into a top program, and then had scores of thousands of debt going to another program, but other than that I don’t think it will permanently harm the kid if they try to do it, so it isn’t like this is a choice between the lady or the tiger, either:)</p>

<p>Not all performance majors want to go into classical music in the first place. Nor do they seek stardom within pop music. There is a wide variety out there beyond these two genres. Many conservatory graduates go into areas other than these two and are very financially as well as artistically successful. Lead singer and first fiddle for the Carolina Chocolate Drops is an Oberlin grad. Another example is the group the Punch Brothers which has several conservatory grads including the bassist who is a Curtis grad. From NEC’s great improv. program many have gone on to strong careers including Aoife O’Donovan who besides her own work has written songs for Allison Krauss and others. The lead singer of the group The National went to Yale and the Yale school of Music. I’m not saying it’s an easy business but the broader a persons view of music is, the greater opportunities are. A narrow public perception of what music is actually there lends credence to a lack of such opportunities.</p>

<p>@compdad-
Well written, and an important point. The idea of a ‘classically trained’ musician doing <em>gasp</em> other kinds of music still raises eyebrows in some quarters, but what you point out is valuable. An acquaintance of mine through friends, is a violist, Juilliard trained, who has made a living both in the pits of Broadway theaters, subbing and so forth, and also has done a lot of classical recording, but also has done a lot of work doing all kinds of music (one hell of a jazz violist, I might add…he does a jazz version of the Bach solo cello suites that is awesome). Even conservatories are waking up (slowly, but still), and you don’t see things like when Nigel Kennedy was at Juilliard, and he was going to perform with Stephanne Grapelli, and Delay was having all kinds of fits about how it would ruin his career and such…I also hear Heifetz played a mean jazz piano:). </p>

<p>Agreed. My daughter has become quite fond of Eighth Blackbird, as well as Sybarite 5. I believe the members of Sybarite 5 all met at Oberlin.</p>

<p>Eighth Blackbird formed at Oberlin. Sybarite5 formed at Aspen and are from several schools including Juilliard, Michigan and BU. The moral of the story is that great classically trained musicians have a wide world of music before them to be made and played.</p>

<p>H was accepted to one of the best instrumental jazz programs in the US many years ago. Realized there were 300 incredible musicians there playing just his instrument. Knew deep down that making a living playing professionally was unlikely with such amazing competition, so he switched to a different and more employable major and kept music as a minor. It was tough for him to give up his dream of a career in music, but he joined a community wind ensemble after college and has been playing ever for fun and as a hobby ever since. </p>

<p>There are other paths one can take that can still fulfill the joy of playing or playing to an audience. Carnegie Hall isn’t the only venue where one can feel accomplished and appreciated.</p>

<p>It’s like I always tell my daughters, “There are as many paths to success as there are people. Find yours.” </p>