What do I need to do to succeed?

I’m currently a senior studying CE and I absolutely hate it. I only have one more semester to go and, with that being said, I really want to switch to premed. It’s something that I’ve always been interested in and only recently have I decided to get it together and work towards something I actually want to do.

My biggest issue:
I gave a lackluster effort during most of my time in college and earned a 3.0 GPA (roughly). I have a lot of classes with A’s and B’s, but my distaste towards CE resulted in a deterioration of grades. I know that a 3.0 GPA is nowhere near what it needs to be and I know it’s going to take a lot of effort in order to fix it.

My plan:
My college allows for classes to be repeated, up to two times, without penalty. Meaning that I could go back and retake classes that I got poor grades in to help “reset” my GPA. Because of an overlap in maths and sciences in the beginning of premed and CE, I have a large amount of credits towards a premed degree. I think it would be best to tack on a class I did bad in each semester in order to reverse its negative effect on my GPA.

I know this is the “what are the chances” forum, but I’m really asking what needs to be done? Is what I’m trying to do going to be enough or am I going to need to do more? What else can be done to fix what a younger, dumber me did?

While your college might allow this…I’m not sure medical schools do.

@WayOutWestMom

Neither allopathic (MD) nor osteopathic (DO) medical schools allow grade replacement, even if your college does. You are required to report both the replaced grade and the original grade. Both will be included in all GPA calculations.

Both AMCAS (MD) and AACOMAS (DO) will look at 2 GPAs–one cumulative and one for sciences. AMCAS. considers bio, chem, physics and math for science; AACOMAS excludes math but may include some of your engineering courses. Your science GPA is the more important of the 2.

As an engineering major, it’s going to be difficult to move the needle on your science GPA because you have already have so many science credits.

Before I get any further–what exactly do you dislike about engineering? Other than being a childhood dream, what attracts you to medicine? Adcomms will ask you about why you switched careers and you need a really good answer. They will want reassurance that you are running TOWARD medicine and not AWAY from engineering.

Have you shadowed any physicians? Done any clinical volunteering where you can observed the day-to-day of medicine and interact with patients and their families?

If not, then that you should be your first step. You need to see first hand what medicine is about and make sure this isn’t some fantasy or idealization of what you think medicine is/should be.

Since you are currently a senior, you should graduate and get a job. Shadow and volunteer at a hospital, hospice, nursing home or public clinic, get involved in community service w/ the disadvantaged while working full or part-time. If, after a year or more of volunteering, the desire to go into medicine is still there, then you can enroll in a formal or DIY grade enhancing post-bacc. 30+ credits of excellent grades in UL biology and chem classes, coupled with a strong MCAT score will ease any academic concerns adcomms have about your weak undergrad academics.

This plan has two benefits: it puts space between you and your current less than wonderful grades and it gives you the time to complete the expected pre-med ECs (shadowing, clinical volunteering, community service, leadership roles in your ECs) Your ECs are just as important as your GPA for med school admission. A 4.0 GPA + no/weak ECs = rejection just as surely as a 3.0 GPA = rejection.

I know this is not the answer you are hoping for, but this is your surest–and likely only-- path to medical school.

Medical school admission requires a marathon, not a sprint. You need to be in it for the long haul.

Would you consider another healthcare field? There a dozens of options, and many would require less time for academic rehabilitation and have shorter training than med school.

Recently, on Sdn, there was a premed from Columbia U with 3.0 gpa applied for med school and did not go anywhere including DO schools. My suggestion for you is to work in a CE field upon your graduation for 5 years and return to apply for med school as non-traditional. Why? Because after 5 years, your college gpa is going to be ignored by med school and your post bacc grades and Mcat scores will be more prevalent.

MD was the direction I am more inclined to go. I’m not sure exactly which courses would fall under the science category though. Would my higher-level CE classes be a part of that? As part of a “what-if” degree audit, my higher level CE classes fell within the required sciences category for a pre-med degree. You say its difficult to change my science GPA, but, other than my CE classes, my math, chem, and physics grades are all OK, with all but one grade being A’s and B’s.

The biggest reason that I dislike CE so much is that none of what comes after college is anything that interests me. I just have no passion or drive for estimating, design, project management, etc. CE really wasn’t really even much of a choice of mine, but more or less a lack of choice. I hadn’t really even planned to go to college, but I was blessed with an opportunity to go, so I went. I was pretty much undecided up until the last minute and just picked something.

One of the things that attracts me to medicine is just how fascinated I am by it. It’s just something that’s always been an interest to me, but I never really knew what direction I wanted to take. Medicine is also a great way to help people and helping people is something that I love to do.

I think that graduating now and volunteering for about a year is a really good idea. I know a lot of people that work at the hospital where I live and I think finding volunteer work there would be easy. There’s also plenty of other volunteering places in my city so I’m sure that those could be an option as well.

As for leadership EC’s, what types of things would fall into that category?

After reading your reply, I did some more research on EC’s and just happened to stumble upon another post where you seemed to wholeheartedly agree with another post.

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-topics/1195439-ecs-for-medical-school.html

One of the main things that the person said was that one of the biggest influences in acceptance was the passion in which you do something. The person mentions dancing as something that really set them apart from others because it was something that they were really passionate about. One thing that I do every day that means a lot to me is to go to the gym and keep healthy because my brother and I had a very bad weight problem in the past. Eating right and being physically well is something that I take a huge amount of pride in and love to do. It hits very close to home to see others that are struggling with their weight because I’ve been there and I know that it’s an uphill battle every day. Would getting involved in a fitness community be something that would help as well?

Regarding the post bacc, how exactly would that work? My CE degree had some overlapping courses with pre-med, but I haven’t taken any BIO classes. Most sources I’ve looked at say it would take anywhere from 8 months to 2 years to complete (depending on the educational background). One article I read called it a GPA “booster shot”, but without the required premed courses in my background, where would it take me? Which post back option would be good for my particular situation?

When you ask to consider other health care options, are you talking about things such as nursing, physicians, physicians’ assistants, PT’s etc.? I’ve thought of them as more of a fallback option. I don’t really want to think like that, but it’s a real possibility and I have to be prepared no matter what.

Thank you for the reply! I’d rather not get the answer I want then to get a dishonest one or none at all.

There are HUNDREDS of jobs where you can “help people” if that is what you really want to do. And there are lots of medically related fields,…not doctor…where you can help people.

Please…think of a better reason why you want to be a doctor.

I think you need to spend some significant time shadowing a doctor. Then spend some time with a nurse, PA, APRN, and see what they do in the medical field.

If you really want to help people…what about social work, teaching.

Helping people and working are not necessarily go together items. You can significantly help people by volunteering your time and expertise with Habitat for Humanity, your local soup kitchen, a homeless shelter. Become a big brother/big sister and mentor a student.

[AMCAS Course Classification Guide](AMCAS® Course Classification Guide)

[AACOMAS Course Classification guide](AACOMAS Course Subjects - Liaison)

Calculate your sGPA using both of the above and tell us what it is.

The median accepted students for allopathic (MD) programs had a 3.7 sGPA; for DO schools, it was a 3.4+

But right now your cumulative GPA makes you a non-starter. Med school screen applicants using cGPA and MCAT scores. With 10,000 applicants for 175 seats, adcomms simply cannot review that many applications. Many/most use a computer software program to screen out applicants that don’t meet a minimum gpa and MCAT. A 3.0 won’t even get you past the computer screener.

You need to get your cGPA and sGPA up around 3.5 if you want to be taken seriously as an applicant for MD programs. For DO programs, 3.3.

You may prefer a MD, but you aren’t in a position to picky. Should you get to the point of applying to med school, you will need to apply broadly to both MD and DO programs.


I hate to say this but your reason for "why med school?" sounds pretty weak. "Want to help people" is good STARTING place for your reason, but by itself isn't enough. Most jobs help people. I help people all day long and I'm not a physician. And you can find lots of things interesting without pursuing a career in the field. I find astrophysics fascinating, have since I was a teenager, and I read constantly on the topic, but that doesn't mean I should become an astrophysicist.

You have a long & specific list of reasons for "why not CE"--you need a equally long list of specific reasons for 'why medicine'.

RE: ECs

Leadership is simply that. Positions where you persuade and direct others toward a common goal, preferably not because you have power over them, but because they have chosen you to do so. Some example–founding a club or non-profit organization, championing a cause/social activism, Boy Scout/Girl Scout/church group team leader, sports team captain, president/officer of an activity or club, creating a project to serve your community. Your leadership can be through your job–like becoming a trainer for new hires or being a team leader on a project.

It would depend on how you approached it. If you founded a community outreach program in a disadvantaged area/food desert where you helped people make healthier choices of in food and lifestyle or started a urban community garden and included an educational component about healthy lifestyles–then yes. If you mean interacting with your fellow gym go-ers or making fitness videos or designing a fitness app–then no.

Passion for your ECs is important, but just having a quirky interest (like the poster’s interest in dance) isn’t a slam dunk for getting into med school.


A post-bacc would involve either enrolling in formal program or taking courses at your local 4 year college full or part-time as non-degree seeking student. Either will work. Formal post-baccs tend to be expensive and there is little or no FA available. 

(Some post-baccs may be eligible for federal loans, but you must be enrolled full time and the amount of federal loans won't come close to covering the cost of the program. Please don't take out substantial debt to do a post-bacc because 1. med school is expensive & you need to minimize your debt,  and 2. most applicants to med school don't get accepted.)

You have taken too many science to be eligible for career changer post-bacc programs--and that's not the primary problem with your candidacy. You need a better GPA and sGPA. Grade enhancing post-bacc.

Do not enroll in a graduate program. A graduate degree won't fix your primary problem of low uGPA. Adcomms don't consider grad GPAs (unless they're weak, then it hurts you, but good grad GPA won't help you get a med school acceptance.)

A full-time formal post-bacc takes anywhere from 9 months to 2 years. It depends on the program. And it depends on how much academic remediation you need to do. Specifically, you need to take enough classes to raise your gpa into an acceptable range for med school--3.5 for MD, 3.3 for DO. The closer your GPA is to the acceptable range, the shorter the time you'll need to remediate,

Grade-enhancing checklist--

1) complete any missing pre-reqs (Bio, ochem, biochem, psych, sociology, statistics/biostats] if you haven't taken these)
You need As in all of them. If you don't get As, then pick another career. 

2) take UL electives in bio and chem--about 6-8 classes at least. Things deal w/ the topics you'll see in med school--human anatomy, neuroscience, neurochemistry, biochem 2, immunology, genetics, embryology etc
You need As in as many as possible. If you are getting more Bs than As--find a another career.

OK hopefully I did this correctly. My overall GPA’s are:

Total Cumulative GPA: 3.02

AMCAS Science GPA: 3.29
AMCAS All Other GPA: 2.90

AACOMAS Science GPA: 3.68
AACOMAS Other GPA: 2.93

These should be correct as long as I picked the correct classes for each the MD and DO. I did this all on a spreadsheet so I can revisit and revise if you think I may have placed classes where they don’t belong. The classes that I put within AMCAS’s science category were only my CHEM, MATH, PHYS, STAT, and ME classes. All the rest I grouped in with the AO. As for AACOMAS, it said specifically that Civil Engineering classes were considered a non-science, and so were MATH’s. So that calculation is basically all of the same classes other than the MATH classes being switched to the others.
I’m pretty confident that my AMCAS GPA’s are correct by the guidelines, but I’m not certain about the AACOMAS.

As for the “Grade-enhancing-checklist”, it’s pretty much A out or stay out correct? Just a couple of B’s and it ruins any and all chances? I also need to complete all of the pre-reqs because I haven’t taken any bio, ochem, biochem, psych, soc, or biostats.

You’ve taken physics and gen chem as well calculus, right? Those are also pre-reqs, but I didn’t list them because I assumed you’ve already taken those. Those 4-6 classes are typically enough credits to disqualify you from career-changer programs–which are intended for people with zero science/math credits.

Your AACOMAS sGPA looks pretty good. DO programs might be accessible for you if you can complete your remaining pre-reqs with mostly As and score well on the MCAT. For MD programs, you have quite a bit of work to do before you’ll be a creditable candidate.

Pretty much A out or stay out w/r/t to the pre-reqs because of your academic record

As for Bs in UL electives—every B makes adcomms MUCH less likely to view your application favorably. (Why should they choose you when they have so many other applicants without academic issues to choose from?)

You’re a high risk applicant based on your past academic record and med schools are very risk-adverse. You need to prove to adcomms that you can achieve at a high level while carrying a challenging workload and that you’ve put your lackluster work habits behind you.

Yes I’ve taken the early physics, chem, and calculus, as well as some other higher levels maths.

Ok I just want to recap and make sure I’ve heard everything correctly and I understand everything here.

My best bet would be to finish out the CE degree that I’m currently working on, graduate and take the following year (or longer) in order to get a more firsthand experience with medicine, in general, and to also build good EC’s. After this time, if med school is still what I really want to do, then apply for a post-bacc and take the pre req classes that I’m missing as well as other upper level courses in order to boost my GPA and show that I can excel in that environment. Providing that I get an outstanding academic record and good EC’s, then I would want to apply to predominantly DO med schools.

You’ve got it exactly right!

If you do well in your remaining pre-reqs and score well on the MCAT (508 or better), you may be able to apply DO without taking additional UL science electives since your current AOA sGPA looks pretty good.

You have given me a lot to think about and, hopefully, after a couple years, I’m still as interested in doing this. You’ve been a great help for me to understand my chances and what I would need to do to get there.

Thank you for you time!

That can be remedied. Go to graduate school and take the prerequisites there. If you can ace those classes and score high on the MCAT, you have a decent shot.

@WayOutWestMom

Do graduate school courses remedy this situation if it’s just a regular masters program?

@coolguy40

A master’s degree program does not remediate a poor undergrad GPA for MD programs.

For allopathic schools, grad coursework generates a separate GPA that adcomms do not considered during the admission process–unless it’s bad, in which case it’s a big negative.

This is partially due to widespread grade inflation in graduate programs and the essentially valueless credits given for research participation. Also adcomms like to compare apples-to-apples when considering applicants. Since few applicants hold advanced degrees, they don’t look at grad degrees or GPAs.

For allopathic schools, only a specialize grad program called a Special Master’s Program (SMP) will salvage a poor uGPA. SMPs are programs that mimic the types of coursework taken and the difficulty of the first year of med school. A SMP is a high risk-high reward path. Do well, finish in the top 10-20% of the class with a GPA>3.75 and you have a 50-50 chance of gaining an admission somewhere (most often at a DO program). Finish outside the top quintile or earn a gpa below 3.75 and you can kiss your hopes of a medical education good-bye forever.

Osteopathic med schools will include some graduate coursework when calculating cGPAs and sGPAs.

Civil engineers can help people, too! My husband did a volunteer stint in the Dominican Republic and noticed an unfinished building. It turns out it was a church/community center/storm shelter. They couldn’t afford the steel-framed roof that a local engineer had designed. So DH did pro bono work and redesigned the roof with wood trusses. Then he talked to a wood truss company in the US that donated the trusses. Someone else in the States paid for shipping the trusses to the DR. So this very poor community got a structure that kept a lot of people safe during the last big hurricane that blew through. This is just one small example - you don’t have to be a physician to help people.