What do parents of this forum think about majors and careers?

Parents Forum
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<p>""I am leaning toward ED Brown, but I was worried about a Econ degree from Brown in terms of bulge bracket I-bank recruiting?
I have heard that Dartmouth has an overwhelming edge when it come to the Street. Could anyone tell me more about this?"</p>

<p>Mamochka, you might applaud this kid's single mindedness, but I don't. "</p>

<p>It might very well be that these kids are expressing the anxiety associated with the debt they are taking on, or the debt that their parent's are taking on, or that their parents are making a huge financial sacrifice. Who knows? Money is an issue in many people's lives, that's a fact.</p>

<p>I do know one thing. I've found a liberation that came with my kids going to a state flagship for free. They can dink around all they want; they can change majors, explore different paths, take an extra year, go for two degrees, go post-graduate, with no financial repercussions whatsoever. It is somewhat of a luxury and takes the anxiety over getting a degree in four years, or getting a high paying job right out of school out of the equation.</p>

<p>I'm not saying that students should sacrifice quality, though. My kid's school is in the top 50 overall, and top 20 public universities. I wouldn't compromise and go to a crummy school just to save money. It is nice to be able to sit back and relax and not have to worry about the almighty $$, though.</p>

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<p>Well, this is just a really interesting thread. I'm shocked by some of the data regarding U Chicago and Princeton humanities majors on the job market. It's not our impression at all. We have many baby boomer friends a little older than us with kids who majored in the humanities and liberal arts at very expensive and very pretigious schools. It seems like the majority of these kids are still heavily supported by their parents. Very few seem to be earning a living in the coastal communities where they insist on living. It's really tough on the parents who are eyeing retirment. Most seem to be resigned that they will now face paying for law or mba school -- or seeing their kids load up with massive education debt. I really don't see the positive side in this. But I do acknowledge that many of the so-called practical technical fields -- computer science and engineering -- can be very volatile and prone to out-sourcing. We've tried to steer our kids toward the practical because they do extremely well in math and science. Maybe we've been wrong on that and my friend whose daughter who wants to go to U Chicago and think about interesting ideas for four years at a tune of $200k for mom and dad is on the right track. Maybe I should just relent and start acting delighted when my senior talks about majoring in anthropology.</p>

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<p>mammall: Maybe your senior would be interested in "sports anthropology". According to some, it is a huge industry. Just google it. DD has friend who is studying this and it really sounds interesting.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The truth is, I don't see American college graduates applying to many available high-paying computer jobs that are currently available in the US.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm in the field too, and this is arguably not true, at least not true everywhere.</p>

<p>Debunking</a> the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage</p>

<p>
[quote]
This certainly sounds too pragmatic for this thread, but wouldn't you like to see such statistics?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think this thread has been surprisingly pragmatic, actually. Many people, including me, have stated these supposedly unemployable majors are actually employable after all.</p>

<p>Let's say somebody majors in something obscure like Hindi literature. Unemployable, you say? Hardly. In addition to the fact that if they come from a top school they can probably get hired by a financial firm (I swear, at the Career Fair, those guys would AMBUSH you to get you to come over to their booth, regardless of major), they can probably get employed in national security without much trouble.</p>

<p>English/Lit major? Can be a tech writer (as you might know, working in tech, good ones are much in demand), or work for a publishing house. Political science/IR or history major? Can work on Capitol Hill, or for a think tank. Life sciences major? I hear biotech is booming. Foreign language/lit/area studies major? There's national security, translation, working for an international business. Linguistics? Try a computing company that does AI. Psychology? Good usability folks are much needed in software. And these are just some opportunities at the bachelor's level related to the field you studied. These don't include the numerous well-paying jobs that you can get that don't require a degree in a certain area, and they don't include the opportunities for those with grad degrees.</p>

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<p>My niece just graduated with an English degree from a very good, but not highly prestigious, college last year. She had good, but not stellar, grades. She did an internship in public relations at a company near her college for credit while in college and was offered a permanent job at that company. She did not want to remain in the area where her college and internship were located, and returned home after graduation. She put her resume out and quickly got a position in marketing/advertising/public relations with a well known local firm. Her salary was around $30K to start, she got a 7% raise after three months, and she has good health benefits. She is living at home right now and feels that she is getting good experience in this job which will help her get a better job in the same field in a few years. I think she is doing fine for someone who just graduated last June.</p>

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<p>Those kids… No matter what parents are talking about, they always think it’s about them. Didn’t you notice this thread was posted at the parents forum and directed to parents?
Anyway, since it became a more personal discussion about individual major and career choices, let me add a few personal touches too.
I am actually a very relaxed parent and not worried much about the professional future of either of my daughters. I majored in Linguistics many years ago, taught college level French and worked as Italian and French interpreter for many years. At the age of 42, made a drastic career change (without going back to school) and moved into the computer industry. Learned on the job, raised kids, supported family, climbed the professional ladder and increased my earnings trifold at the same time. All the above happened on three continents over a number of years. Currently employed by one of the biggest and oldest investment companies in the US and working primarily with recent college graduates and off-shore technical teams. Rather open-minded considering my dogmatic communist background and not behind the times at all. </p>

<p>I never said on this thread that your major is a limitation. What I said, is that your major should be a ‘major’ help and that the four most productive years of one’s life in terms of learning and intellectual growth should bring you at least some applicable knowledge and skills. And it doesn’t have to come at the expense of your being ‘less rounded’ as a result of taking a few science or math courses. You may find them very useful later in life.</p>

<p>Corranged, you really made my day by writing this: “When parents, current students, universities, college career services, and a variety of firms and professional schools disagree with you, you should really re-consider your position.” If you only knew how close this is to the communist dogma that the majority is always right. If you are really interested, I can find you a few good books or online articles about how the dogma played out in the former USSR and with what consequences.</p>

<p>To my older daughter, I would like to ask this: as you are about to graduate from one of the best liberal arts programs in this country, how much of your personal growth and intellectual development over the last 3.5 years comes from the liberal arts curriculum at your school, and how much you would attribute to other sources and circumstances? Have you had any courses that had a great impact on you and made you change the path you had chosen at the beginning? How much help have you gotten from your academic advisor(s) when you were selecting those courses and major? How helpful was the school in finding summer and other internships and thus giving you a more informed outlook on life? One last question: please imagine for two minutes only that you can actually stomach math, or economics, or science, or medicine (there are many young people out there, including your own sister who can.) Would you have become a less rounded person if you selected those as majors? I am asking b/c I get the impression that kids who can stomach certain things are not being encouraged to do so by their high school counselors and certainly not but colleges.</p>

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<p>mammall: If your approach is a happy for for all concerned that is wonderful. More power to you and yours who I am sure will have stellar success (totally sincere, the darned internet.) But why so snide? </p>

<p>I don't see fulfillment as dollar signs. I am not saying you do. One of my kids is a math/science (particularly science) person; my daughter is not. She did well, even in her college courses, but how people live together in society is all that interests her.</p>

<p>Her dad and I (a photographer and a poet) have been able to earn a living. He owns his own photography studio. It has had it's financially ups and downs, but here have been times he has earned a lot of money. He cannot be fired or laid off, which is a big plus. I am a college professor. I don't earn gobs of money, granted, but my job has excellent benefits and is very secure. We have no enforced retirement and we have people on our faculty up to 80 so I am not much worried about my financial future. Yes, I have to keep working for a while, but I love what I do.</p>

<p>H still takes many art photos. They inform his for pay work. I give readings, get published. It's braided into my academic career. </p>

<p>If our kids followed our route, what would be so bad? It happens that one wants to be a lawyer and one a doctor. They have from early childhood. There are state supported med and law schools. Should they choose to attend other schools they will have to take loans. We will help as much as we can. For their intended careers their majors were not prescribed so each is taking something close to his/her heart. Why would you be snide about this? We are all satisfied with our outcomes and I'm hoping future outcomes.</p>

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<p>What a bland and cold world, if everyone studied only finance and science. Where is the color of art, the timbre of music...where are the thinkers, the philosophers?</p>

<p>For those who push their kids towards what they consider will be "lucrative" degrees, that is your prerogative. Fortunately, I do not share that view.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Those kids… No matter what parents are talking about, they always think it’s about them. Didn’t you notice this thread was posted at the parents forum and directed to parents?

[/quote]
What exactly is your problem with me? The fact that I'm a student? The fact that I'm a student and willing to disagree with you? Seriously. This is an internet message board. It is open to anyone who posts and follows the TOS. Why shouldn't I be allowed to share my viewpoint and experiences? </p>

<p>
[quote]
Corranged, you really made my day by writing this: “When parents, current students, universities, college career services, and a variety of firms and professional schools disagree with you, you should really re-consider your position.” If you only knew how close this is to the communist dogma that the majority is always right.

[/quote]
I did not say that the majority is always right. I said that when the majority of people and organizations disagrees with you, it is worth re-considering your position, which you don't seem willing to do. Further, since you are talking about the job market, it is really the practices of the firms, businesses, and professional schools that you care about. I am saying that these people disagree with you.</p>

<p>If you don't mind, I would like to answer the questions you posed to your daughter:

[quote]
how much of your personal growth and intellectual development over the last 3.5 years comes from the liberal arts curriculum at your school, and how much you would attribute to other sources and circumstances?

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I would not hesitate to say that my college's core curriculum and the resulting discussions have had a major impact on my thinking, approaches to thinking, and the way I communicate these things with friends and peers. The University of Chicago is created for intellectual development, the so-called "life of the mind," and it is successful at creating such an atmosphere.

[quote]
Have you had any courses that had a great impact on you and made you change the path you had chosen at the beginning?

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Change my path? I'm not sure. Change my thinking? Absolutely. Actually, I had a 45-minute interview that completely changed the way I considered a certain intellectual topic; I regard that interview as one of my greatest intellectual experiences to date. Other courses have certainly influenced me both with the required readings and the resulting discussions.

[quote]
How much help have you gotten from your academic advisor(s) when you were selecting those courses and major?

[/quote]
I've been following largely a core curriculum, that was created a very long time ago. I guess that's advice from "original" advisers. In terms of specific courses, my adviser was extremely helpful in having me see a variety of options. I was originally going to spent 2nd year exploring for a major, but instead I sort of ran into the one I'm currently in. I chose my major on my own.

[quote]
How helpful was the school in finding summer and other internships and thus giving you a more informed outlook on life?

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The career office at my school is extraordinarily active and helpful. I don't know anyone beyond their 1st year who hasn't at the very least gone in for a resume review. There are recruiting events on campus daily this time of year as well as numerous events off campus that are open to students. I get emails about internships, events on finding internships, events on exploring career fields, networking events, recruiting events, etc. almost every day.

[quote]
Would you have become a less rounded person if you selected those as majors?

[/quote]
My college has a core curriculum, so this question does not really apply. All students have a strong liberal arts background going into a math or econ major. I would have been less rounded--and less content--as a person if I had not taken the core liberal arts courses that my schools required. The core curriculum takes just under two years to complete, in general.</p>

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<p>Sorry for being snide. It's the stress of having a senior that brings that out in me, I think. I do feel the conflict, do want to see my kids follow their intellectual passions. But I also want them to be financially secure in a really competitive economy. One point I would make is that humanities and many of the liberal arts can be pursued around the edges of your more practical profession. That is, an engineer -- like me -- can read and re-read Jane Austen to my hearts content. But I don't think a typical English major can delve meaningfully into many of the sciences and technical fields (computer science may be an exception) on their own. So a case could be made that the liberal arts leaning student is actually stretching themselves more, expanding their intellectual scope more by majoring in a field that is not such a comfortable fit for their talents and interests. But I'm really reassured by the data some on here have posted concerning job prospects for liberal arts majors. Have no real clear idea what my kids will end up majoring in.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Corranged, you really made my day by writing this: “When parents, current students, universities, college career services, and a variety of firms and professional schools disagree with you, you should really re-consider your position.” If you only knew how close this is to the communist dogma that the majority is always right. If you are really interested, I can find you a few good books or online articles about how the dogma played out in the former USSR and with what consequences.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Way to play the commie card. Let's re-look at what Corranged said: she didn't say it's right because the majority says so; she said that if the people most involved in college preparation for careers and life after college are all on the same page, than perhaps there's a reason why. It ain't just arbitrary, and it ain't a decree from on high. It's because they are all going by their experiences and expectations, and perhaps it would make sense to examine and be open-minded to why they feel that way.</p>

<p>Edit: I see corranged defended herself just fine:)</p>

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<p>To answer my mom's questions: sure, she's right that a large part of my personal growth and development over the last 3.5 years has not had much to do with college necessarily. That doesn't mean it that college is not such a catalyst for most other students. Furthermore, if I had majored in math or science, I doubt I'd ever come out satisfied -- because I would not be enjoying what I was learning and would constantly repeat to myself that I were not happy. Call it a result of negative conditioning in grade school, but that's how it stands.</p>

<p>Going on, I have, actually, had courses that have changed my career path from the beginning (and pushed me to minor in media/comm instead of Spanish). Actually all the English classes that I've taken have been really helpful in refining my writing skills and in pushing the practical side of communications in the workplace; and different types of writing in academia and the workplace, too.</p>

<p>The school has certainly helped me find internships -- one at a well-known local magazine, the other at a media production center. Albeit only through name recognition, I doubt those places would have called me back for an interview had I graduated from a community college. </p>

<p>A large part of my "personal growth and development", whatever you call it, happened during my time studying abroad. Not everyone gets to do that and it was an opportunity that for me, for instance, opened a lot of ideas. One example is the possibility of applying to work, at some point in the future, in foreign service.</p>

<p>It's not that the school did not offer any of those resources that mamochka mentions. It's the challenge that students may or may not take advantage of all of them, and thus the parents are not always aware that those resources even exist. These resources can range from formal ones by the career center to informal networking by alumni and career-oriented clubs. Some students feel the need to join those, others don't. </p>

<p>Economics, engineers, bio and math people can certainly be well-rounded. I know many that are, and frankly, I admire them. However, some of us are leaning the other way; that doesn't mean that we are less likely to be successful or to find a secure career. It also doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It's a personal choice based on propensity, ability, and skills that were either developed or not in grade school. If you dislike and struggle with math by the time you are in college, it is unlikely that in four years you will graduate an expert in astrophysics. It´s also unlikely you will do well in a college level math class, unless you suddenly find a profound love for calc. Hasn´t happened to me. And I did take the required two math courses for my school.</p>

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<p>My son majored in economics and is working in finance. He started in computer science but it never grabbed him, and he just loved economics when he started studying it. He also became involved with the investment club at his university and learned a lot through that activity. He is extremely interested in his work - he told me that at his new job he can learn as much as he is able to and that "I hope that they keep me on here for a long time so I can keep learning a lot". The fact that it is very lucrative is just icing on the cake as far as I am concerned - I am glad that he is happy and interested in his work! We never encouraged him to go into this field - I am a scientist and my husband is an engineer, so we didn't even know anything about finance jobs until our son became interested. (I guess we should be embarrassed about such a major gap in our knowledge base :) )</p>

<p>My daughter is double majoring in Asian Studies (with the equivalent of a minor in Chinese) and Studio Art at an LAC, and, like my son, she is extremely interested in what she is studying. Unlike the rest of our family, she is not a math/science person. She has become pretty fluent in Chinese after only two years of study, and she has excellent people skills (better than any of the rest of us). Although she is a talented artist, she knows that she will not become a professional artist, but loves art so much that she decided to pursue it in college along with her other major. Obviously, her majors do not lead directly to a specific career in the same way economics or business can lead to a job in finance, but we did not discourage her from her choice of course of study. We are confident that she will find an interesting way to use her knowledge and skills after graduation. The fact that she will likely not earn as much money as her brother in finance is not important, as long as she is on a path where she will be self-supporting in the foreseeable future.</p>

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<p>Mammall--here's where your position doesn't work for me: I was an English major. I enjoyed it immensely, and the amount of work I did (I'm guessing 80+ credits UG, plus a master's,) could not have been accomplished nibbling at the edges. You don't write scores, sometimes hundreds of pages in a semester, plus read thousands of pages, at the edges, and experiencing this rigor teaches you in a way that not doing so doesn't.</p>

<p>Further, though I was very good at math (good grades in HS calc, very high SAT, etc) I did not enjoy it. The idea of being an engineer, while reading Jane Austen on the side, for me would be a nightmare. My main job, college support advisor/counselor, is something I fell into and love. My second job, teaching college English, comes directly from my education. Neither pays great, but i am doing fine. </p>

<p>Our family goes by the axiom that the less you want, the more freedom you have.</p>

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<p>

That'd be 62.3%, right? ;)</p>

<p>[/nitpick]</p>

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<p>mammall: I have more sympathy for you after your last post. We're all worried about our kids, and props to your math/science family. But you seem too worried for the facts, both about admissions and eventual outcomes. Your senior is gifted; she will find her way regardless of her school or major, although I'm sure both will be excellent.</p>

<p>I am sad we live in a world that so values the "practical" disciplines over the "impractical". I would like to like in a world in which the ethical question of "should we drop a atom bomb" receives as much time and research as "can we build an atom bomb. Now let's do it."</p>

<p>In the world I want empathy is as important, if not more important, than competence. I know empathy is not confined to one discipline, but I sure thing it's the cornerstone of reading literature.</p>

<p>So I guess I would change my question to, "why so worried?" And great for you that you're an engineer and great that you read Jane Austen.</p>

<p>BTW: I teach Darwin and Einstein in the context of history of ideas to kids who would not learn it another way, and I do keep current on all math/science advances. Have taught fractals and chaos theory and have programs to create fractals.</p>

<p>Even less relevant to discussion: Although it got good reviews I thought The Jane Austen Book Club a horrible movie, trite, predictable, nothing whatsoever in the spirit of Austen.</p>

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<p>....I'm an idiot. :)</p>

<p>Thanks, Garland. (The funny thing is that this silly core curriculum I've been studying has forced me to study works in political philosophy and economics. Every student at my college has read the Marx-Engels Reader and The Wealth of Nations, most students have read Politics and The Republic, etc. It's a bit ironic that the OP is against this type of liberal education and yet called on me to know about Communist practices and philosophy.)</p>

<p>There are two issues going on here, I think: 1) You should major in a practical field because it will lead to a job, and 2) Getting that job is what matters. On the first count, I'd argue that you can major in a liberal arts field and still be competitive for a huge array of jobs, including the jobs that econ and business degrees appear to lead into. On the second point, as many others have said, there is a lot more that matters than having a high paying job. I value the liberal arts for what they are, and I value an intellectual life. I think that my studies in the humanities and social sciences have enriched my way of thinking, and I would never give that up.</p>

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<p>I´ve been alerted (via real life) that my previous answer was incomplete. </p>

<p>Mamochka asked: ¨One last question: please imagine for two minutes only that you can actually stomach math, or economics, or science, or medicine (there are many young people out there, including your own sister who can.) Would you have become a less rounded person if you selected those as majors? I am asking b/c I get the impression that kids who can stomach certain things are not being encouraged to do so by their high school counselors and certainly not but colleges.¨</p>

<p>Sure, if I had any inclanation towards math or sciences, I would have majored in that. I´m not oblivious to the fact that those subjects are useful and marketable from the onset. And you´re right, kids aren´t really being encouraged to do that. Part of that is knowing whom to encourage in the first place, and that starts a lot earlier than senior year in college. </p>

<p>At the same time, even those that are bio majors, for instance, don´t really know what to do with that major. (I have a number of friends who are biopsych grads and now working in labs, unsure of what else to do because medical school isn´t really an option.)</p>

<p>I am sure my sis can imagine for herself what she ¨can¨ or can´t do. But at the same time, I don´t like playing on hypotheticals or the ¨what if¨game. She can choose what she would prefer when she is ready to do so. Given the tools she has to make a decision, and I will wager my opinion that she will make a choice that is intelligent.</p>

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<p>Dear Corranged, the 'kids' comment that I made was directed to my own kids who like to sneak on their mom's internet posts. I certainly did not mean to offend you anyhow and had now idea that you are a kid too... :)</p>

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<p>Got it. I apologize for the misunderstanding.</p>