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</p>
<p>I suspect if I looked at the whole student bodies of multiple institutions, I’d see exactly what the research that’s been reported over the last 30 years has seen - that when controls are put into place for the entering capabilities of the students, there’s no statistically determinable impact on educational results for individual students that can be ascribed to the selectivity of the institution.</p>
<p>eyemamom, (post 120)</p>
<p>I like that definition. And of course, no school is affordable for our family with those parameters. So, my kid applied to all unaffordable schools, hoping to receive help from a variety of sources. I still think he picked the least affordable school, but he will be paying for it, not us, since we don’t have the $$-period.</p>
<p>
This is hard to measure, and this is part of the problem. Also, if some of those kids from the selective schools decide to go into academia, they may be making less money than accountants from state universities. </p>
<p>This is relevant to the question of “affording,” I think, because people may be fooled into thinking that the only thing that is worth anything is the diploma, from wherever, and that therefore you should spend the least amount possible for it. But as with any other purchase–a house, a car, a suit–it’s more complicated than that, and there may be luxury features that you don’t absolutely need, but that you will be glad you paid for in the long run. If somebody tells you that the sun roof on your car isn’t worth it, because you can get plenty of sun and air by opening your side window, what would your response be?</p>
<p>I hate sunroofs. I actually waited longer for my last new car to NOT have a sunroof.</p>
<p>I think that is more relevent than it sounds at first. ;)</p>
<p>Poetgrl may have something there–even if you can afford a sunroof (or a top university), if it is not what you want, it may be in your opinion “too expensive.”<br>
That is what I think happened with S and University of Chicago (yes, the guess was correct). Even with the 10k, it was still too competitive and expensive in his mind, esp. compared to the school he eventually chose. That school was initially a safety and even after he got into higher-ranked schools, it somehow morphed into his top choice. Being able to afford it and still have money left over for grad school definitely entered the equation.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo:</p>
<p>No surprise to lose Ivy level talent to MIT. Of the Yale admits in my entire region who declined to matriculate, over 75% turned us down for Harvard, Stanford, or MIT. We aren’t seeing kids turn down Yale to go to Northwestern or U of I with any frequency, much less lower tiered schools, so my point is that a larger number of kids than you might expect saying they could have gone to top tier college A but chose to go to college B are not being truthful.</p>
<p>Back to Annasdad, I have no juried research that suggests against what you have frequently posted but my doubts, shared by others, are fueled by the implausibility that a bright hard working student gains nothing by attending the most selective world class institutions vs. directional U.</p>
<p>I could publish a study flipping a coin 1000 times and report a real but slight difference in the number of “heads” I get when the flipping is done indoors vs. outdoors. To conclude that that difference is related to venue just goes against common sense and a smart person just won’t accept that conclusion. Sometimes the results of a study are surprising but sometimes that is because the conclusion is just plain wrong.</p>
<p>Afford means being able to pay for something without having to explain it to anyone else and without batting an eyelash.</p>
<p>I am intrigued by this last, very simple post (#127). Not “batting an eyelash”. That might also be stated as pay “without compromising our ability to pay for other important things later”. What is important besides college? On these boards, you might think nothing is important besides college. But there is retirement, a more general sense of financial security (including awareness of the possibility of being forced into retirement before you wanted to). Kids weddings. Elderly parents’ needs as they arise. Capital projects that may have to be done to keep up a house over time. Grandchildren, with their 529s.</p>
<p>Not many full-payor families, who are not qualified for merit aid, can offer carte blanche on college and grad school without at least compromising those other financial concerns. In the Northeast, even 8 semesters as a full payor at a home-state directional can end up exceeding $120,000 per kid, if you start this fall. And most do not finish in 8 semesters. So the word “afford” implies a balancing act for most families – exercising judgment about how much college is enough, while considering the academic details and the other financial concerns that are out there.</p>
<p>This debate on prestigious schools versus Cleveland State is interesting. </p>
<p>How about this: really understanding the kid you are dealing with. Some kids are “go-getters” and would thrive at CS and do well after. I think those same kids would also do even better with a top 5 degree and the connections/networking that come with it (for those that take advantage)</p>
<p>On the flip side, some kids are not driven and confident or otherwise “go-getters” that would receive a good education at CS and maybe they wouldn’t be the kind of kid for which you’d spend the extra money on a top 5.</p>
<p>I guess this speaks to projecting into the future what kind of worker you will have. I have an ex b/f who has an expensive degree, but has never been able to move up at work or hold a job for very long. He was a VERY smart kid with 1530 SAT, but lackluster grades…it would have been easy (for me) to predict spending huge sums of money on a college for him was unwise.</p>
<p>Also - if you know you are going to major in something that doesn’t pay well, go to the cheapest school!!!</p>
<p>
Well, maybe. On the other hand, for some careers, where you go to college makes a big difference. If you want to be a college professor in some humanities field, for instance, your academic pedigree is going to make a huge difference in what kind of job you might get, because your recommendations and network will be so important. You might get paid about the same as an assistant professor at schools of various ranks, but you might not consider it “success” if you have to move to North Dakota.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Does this mean that if a student majors in art history, biology, French or philosophy, it’s off to directional state U instead of Swarthmore, regardless of the student’s academic ability or drive? I would agree with you only if the family is severely financially strapped.</p>
<p>The kinds of college degrees that pay well immediately out of undergrad tend to be vocationally oriented fields like accounting or nursing. Many students focus too much on the first job, not the career. If you look at people in mid-career who have done well for themselves, many of them majored in random liberal arts subjects, but also had personal qualities and skills, as well as charisma and likeability, that propelled them upward. The further out of school you are, the less it matters what your major was.</p>
<p>It is very hard to say what majors are going to be marketable in a few years’ time. No major ever guaranteed a job. The relentless pre-professionalization of college is depressing to me. I wish we would drop the fiction that a B.A. = a job. It doesn’t, and it never did.</p>
<p>P.S. I am very glad that my parents decided to take a chance on 18-year-old me and send me away to a good college. I’m pretty sure that others might not have thought I was worth it or demonstrated sufficient merit/drive/etc. at that early point in my life. Yet my college experienced changed me (for the better, I hope). Being around high-caliber people is helpful for personal development.</p>
<p>Methinks that AnnasDad is suffering from a bit of cognitive dissonance. Otherwise he wouldn’t need to keep flogging the same study to demonstrate to all of us what idiots we are. Or noting that his D is graduating from an elite educational institution with a very high percentage of kids who go on to other elite institutions.</p>
<p>My neighbor- who also believes that people who pay for private colleges are morons- has happily sent her kids to the local campus of our State U- which also did not have the major that one of her kids wanted. Her reaction was “he’ll get over it”.</p>
<p>But she wouldn’t be caught dead on CC; has no interest in parsing the fine points of educational outcomes and inputs, and other than thinking that people who pay full freight for a private school are delusional, really has no opinions about the merits of Harvard vs. Haverford except that they both begin with the letter H.</p>
<p>So me thinks that there’s a bit of anxiety over in Anna’s household. But Anna sounds like a fantastic kid, and I’m sure she will take advantage of every opportunity afforded to her at college.</p>
<p>Fieldsports,
Yes, I do consider feeling I can afford something if we can pay for it by writing a check from checking or the investment account without feeling we have to juggle what to pay when or if it is going to have a severe impact on other expenses or savings. Thats what I mean by “not batting an eyelash”. When DH was laid off a few years ago I watched every penny. I thought about every purchase and was very careful to discern if I felt we could “afford” something without dipping into savings.</p>
<p>We were almost full pay for older s’s school (had some small merit $) but when he chose it we agreed that the cost, with a realtively lower cost compared to peer schools, was worth it to us. He turned down a full ride plus stipend offer back then from a big good flagship U in another state. He has once or twice thought that in retrospect maybe it was not the right choice, but for him attending a small, academically challenging university was the perfect fit for him and we have no regrets. IMO it was a great investment and a good value for what he, and we (indirectly) got.</p>
<p>Our younger s just graduated this past weekend (yay!!) He had a great merit scholarship. Even if we could have “afforded” the school from which he just graduated, we would not have been willing to pay full freight for it as we would not have considered it a good value. To me, thats what much of this discussion is really about. Value. Not just can you “afford” it, but is it “worth” it. </p>
<p>I can “afford” a luxury european car, but I would not buy one. They are expensive to maintain and they lose their value quickly. And to me its not worth the money. That said, I feel at this stage I can afford a nicer car than I’d previously driven, and last time we bought a car, we did step up into the luxury category.</p>
<p>We value education and will work long and hard to provide what we have felt was the best for our kids. It is our gift to them. If it means working longer or harder, then so be it. But we have also saved for retirement and are very frugal in general, so have managed to be in a position to “afford” to be choosy. We haven’t factored in 529’s for potential grandchildren in our savings plan. But if there is money for that down the road, we would love to be able to offer a hand with that.</p>
<p>I have a relative who convinces himself he can “afford” stuff he neither needs nor really can afford. So our definition of “afford” differs greatly from his. He is always whining about not having enough money for something but then spends on luxuries and is currently planning an expensive overseas trip. Don’t even get me started… Makes me a bit crazy.</p>
<p>Small addendum to above. When we purchased a home we did not do so by writing a check. But calculating what we could “afford” did take income, savings, expenses and cashflow into consideration.</p>
<p>“My neighbor- who also believes that people who pay for private colleges are morons”</p>
<ul>
<li>Don’t we believe that calling people “morons” is moronic? Who cares what colleges others attend? Sounds like this person has insecurity issue, he can call names as much as he can, while nobody should pay any attention to it. This goes beyond the notion of having too much time on one’s hand…we are in free country (yet!!!)</li>
</ul>
<p>yes, let me qualify that - “Does this mean that if a student majors in art history, biology, French or philosophy, it’s off to directional state U instead of Swarthmore, regardless of the student’s academic ability or drive? I would agree with you only if the family is severely financially strapped.”</p>
<p>I do think if I had mucho mula, I would send my kid to Swat despite her earning potential, but I was more or less assuming the average person’s reserves. I am just being practical.</p>
<p>PG didn’t say that the neighbor called anyone a moron, but indicated that the neighbor seems to be of the belief system that its not smart to pay for private school.</p>
<p>My initial definition of “afford” is can we do it w/o unsub. or parent loans? Can we put the money together between savings, current income, grandparents, summer work and work-study and sub loans? After that it is a matter of value proposition. We could make this work, but is it worth it to us and D? We were fortunate that D’s favorite school ended up being the least expensive out of pocket including loans. It is also the school where we felt that the value proposition was most favorable. We will bat a few eyes and we will juggle and scrimp, but no more so than to send her to “directional state U”. We did not consider the CC and/or live at home option because we value the “college experience” enough to make the sacrifices. Yes, we would have gone that route if no other was possible, but I don’t believe it would have been just as good in her case.</p>
<p>This is an interesting perspective. While I am also a parent of 3, my wife and I are the students in college. </p>
<p>My parents could not afford college, I joined the army at 18 instead. When I got out, I worked as a store manager for a major retailer for 11 years. I realized that I was wasting my potential in life, so I quit at age 32 to go back to school. </p>
<p>My wife, who was a stam, also we back to school with me. Now I am in my 3rd year at UCDavis, as an Electrical Engineer, minor in Business Management. My wife is a Civil Engineering major. </p>
<p>The interesting thing in all of this is… the cost borders on free. This is a little known factoid, but if you are a student, not dependant on your family ( I think it is 25 and older) then almost all major universities have a program that covers your cost of attendence with university grants. </p>
<p>Davis is 16k per year, for my wife and I together , that’s 32k for tuition alone. The university grants us 60k per year, it is not a lot of money, but it is enough to pay tuition, buy books, pay rent and pay child care expensises for our little ones. </p>
<p>When my children are college ready, I will encourage them to look into the military, it was the best 4 years of my life, and gave me a lot of skills that are still useful to me today. The real military is nothing like it is portrayed on tv. It is a 9 to 5 job with a uniform. After their 4 years are up, they will be eligible for subsadized education costs, not to mention the military gives money for college. </p>
<p>There are alternatives out there that do not require students and parents to take on debt. I can not imagine giving my 3 kids 30k a year for school… I’m .it saying I won’t help out… but its the whole “give a man a fish… Or teach a man to fish” thing. </p>
<p>Just my 2c.</p>
<p>Typed this on my smartphone, I aplogize for any weird typos.</p>
<p>Sent from my ADR6425LVW using CC</p>
<p>Are you using the new GI bill, serinety? It is very generous.</p>