What I have learned about state vs. decent private schools

Parents Forum
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<p>I have had kids attend both state universities and decent private schools and have come to some observations. Admittedly, my observations concern only four schools and thus, might not be statistically valid as a sampling. However, I thought I would share what I found.</p>

<p>For years, I have advocated attending a state univesity in the state in which the family is domiciled unless those schools didn't have the major that the student wanted. My reasoning was simple: in- state tuition is usually 25% of what a private school would cost! Moreover, many of the textbooks, course coverage, facilities etc. wouild be the same at both types of schools yet one would be less costly. Thus, attending the state university should be a " no brainer" for most parents. </p>

<p>In fact, if you were to check out the Chronicle of Higher Education's Almanic series, 27 of the universities with the most enrollment were state universities. The only private schools in the top 30 of most enrolled students were University of Phoenix, NYU, and Boston University.</p>

<p>However, I have seen a real downside to that of state universities that I want to share with all parents and students.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The grading is slightly better at private schools. Stare schools don't care about retaining students. In fact, one professor honestly noted that they have to make room for the junior college transfers. Thus, getting A's and even B's are harder at state universities than that of the private schools that I have encounters. This was reaffirmed by each school's instituionalized statistics that noted that the average GPA for state schools were lower than the private schools that I have sseen. This has a lot of implications for profossional schools, grad schools etc.</p></li>
<li><p>Cutbacks in funding: With the economic downtown, state universities have had to cut back significantly, I really didin't understand this until I got a letter from one of my kid's schools noting that due to state funding cutbacks , they would have to cut ouit 65% of all adjunct faculty! Moreover, due to political concerns, these same schools can't raise tuition significantly enough to offset much fo the cutbacks.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Although all private schools have been also affected by the economic downturn, the better private schools haven't cut back their programs as significantly or gone through such draconion cuts. This has resulted in not only much bigger classes for state universities but also actual cuts in programs and especially in course offerings.</p>

<ol>
<li>Miscellaneous cutbacks in career services and other services: With the cutbacks in funding, career services and other ancillary services have had significant cutbacks. Private schools tend to look at career services as being as important as that of the educational services and thus, try very hard NOT to have cutbacks. This really has been an important distinction for the number of employers who interview on campus. </li>
</ol>

<p>As such, there really is a real difference between the quality of education offered to students between state schools and their private school counterparts.</p>

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<p>Taxguy…thanks for sharing. I think you have given parents valuable warnings.
But I do think it’s a situation that can vary significantly based on the schools.
I don’t have much basis for comparison…other than neighbors and friends. But my son did what you originally recommended…attended his state flagship…specifically the honors program with lots scholarships.
We’re proud that he is graduating with no debt…in fact he will have significant dollars as a cushion or for grad school…as we saved one of his scholarships.
He has enjoyed most of his classes and professors…some stinkers thrown in but that’s not unusual. He enjoyed the benefit of small honors classes to replace what could have been huge lecture halls.
Upon recommendation from one of his professors, he landed a paid teaching asst position this year and is learning a great deal.
He has a single room in his fraternity house with free parking and great meals cooked by the aspiring chefs in his fraternity. He’s been an officer in the house for two years in a row.
His GPA is terrfic.
Career planning is rated highly and he hasn’t seen any cutbacks.
Perhaps budget cutbacks will be more visible for future students…so far, he as seen no evidence of cost cutting in his classes or on campus.<br>
He loves his school - the only downside is that he dreads graduating!
Perhaps he could have done as well at a private but at a much higher cost!</p>

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<p>Every schools are cutting back, regardless. Public universities make a public statement of it. Private ones do not. I know of a private university that eliminate transportation, cut down portion of food, and no longer allow second serving, among other things. We don’t hear about these cuts, though.</p>

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<p>I think this is one of those constant debates that has no real answer…We felt our son needed the sort of resources that privates tend to provide- like constant advisor access and student body that was marching, more or less, toward graduation in four years.
BUT, I could easily see our daughter (just 6th grade right now, so this is a leap), thriving at a large public-- she is more likely to SEEK out her advisor, go ask a question at the right department and is far more likely to simply comply with teacher’s expectations.
So, like always, It depends on the kid…</p>

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<p>The politics of the funding is the big thing, in most states. Many states still think of higher ed as a “frill”.
Residence halls, dining halls are not supported by tuition. They are supported by those who pay for their services. If your child’s school is telling you that portions are cut because they are not getting funding from the state, don’t be quick to believe it.
At many public schools things like fitness centers and tech centers are not supported by tax $$ or tuition but by fees that students pay when they attend.
This is why tuition and fees are separate items at public schools, even if the fees are required.</p>

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<p>If you really want to see the impact of budget cuts, try enrolling in a California Junior College. Every class at the local JC is full before the semester even starts - and changes are impossible without getting lucky with someone dropping at the same time you are online. </p>

<p>When I say every class, I mean it - the only two classes with openings at this time are 1.5 unit classes “Legal Issues in Hospitality” and “The Roman Empire” . My son had a section of English get cancelled and therefore needed to add 3 units to stay on my health insurance and is now taking both of these classes. No they are not transferable nor are they anything he is interested in - but he has to pass them to stay on health insurance.</p>

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<p>I attended large Comm College & state school. It is very easy to fall through the cracks, skip class, botch your schedule so I understand why many students will be drop outs. On the other hand if you have a very conscientious, self motivated student it should be no problem.</p>

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<p>Oldest son is currently a senior at a public instate university. He transferred there from a top tiered private college after his freshman year. Based on his experience, his public instate university is serving him much better than the previous $45,000+/yr private college. At his public instate, he has never been shut out of any course that he wanted to take. He was able to take 300 level classes as a sophomore. He has access to professors and his academic advisor at all times. Diversity of the student body is better and this translates into better discussions within the classroom. Most of his classes have had as few as 8 kids in the class and as many as 18. This number is similar to many private college classrooms. The public university offers numerous online classes during the summer and during the long winter breaks to allow kids to finish up their requirements early and make it very possible to graduate in 3-3½ years. Son could have graduated a semester early but chose to stay for the last semester because he’s in the process of applying to grad schools and it’s easier to be right there on campus when asking for recommendations, transcripts, meeting with professors and advisor, and finishing up independent research projects. His gpa has not suffered. He was tops at the private college and has maintained a 3.93 gpa at his public college–while focussing more on 300-400 level classes. </p>

<pre><code> Younger son is currently at a private college (only because of a great merit scholarship). Based on what he has told us, his course work load is a lot less than what his brother has at the public instate. On a side note, the food at his private school is downright disgusting while the food at his brother’s instate public is very good.
</code></pre>

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<p>Taxguy, if you are seeing fewer corporate employers come to campus it has nothing to do with the college cutting back (by and large on-campus recruiting doesn’t cost the college, other than the space to host the interviews which in most cases is already there… i.e. no out-of-pocket) Fewer employers are on campus because we’ve all cut back our hiring targets signficantly, and we do a detailed cost/benefit analysis of each school before we decide to go there for the recruiting season. For core schools, we all end up using local hotel space for interviews anyway- most of the colleges have four or five small conference rooms in their career services centers which is inadequate for a big interview day when we may have 8 interviews going at the same time, plus we need a waiting area for candidates and a big debrief room for the interviewers.</p>

<p>So colleges which have a high yield (i.e. we interview 100 kids, we invite 30 for callbacks) will stay on the list, even when we cut back on the number of offers we expect to extend. Colleges with a low yield (interview 100 kids, get 4 for callbacks) are the first to go- it costs too much money to send a team to interview if we’re not going to have a high yield. </p>

<p>I have observed some state schools cutting back on their career development services but so far it won’t impact kids looking for a corporate type position since we don’t need a lot of resources on campus. The kids it will impact are those interested in employment in the arts, non-profits, think tanks, Peace Corps, etc. Those are the employers who don’t have a big recruiting budget and so they rely on the colleges resources to funnel interested students to them. These employers assume that there is a robust counseling staff in place at the colleges (help with resumes, how to identify jobs and organizations which are a match, etc.) and if the colleges cut out these mid-level counseling roles the kids will feel it pretty quickly.</p>

<p>Agree 100% with you that in most cases, private colleges do not view career services as ancillary to their mission. The top tier schools have people who do nothing but help students apply for fellowships, internships at Parliament, overseas study and post-grad opportunities, advise on job search strategies, etc. It is harder to justify these expenses at a public institution if budgets are getting cut. (which is more important- Freshman chemistry or paying for a fulltime Rhodes/Marshall/Fulbright advisor?)</p>

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<p>For kids who are planning on Grad. School in various fields, the only diff. is comparative chances of combination GPA / Entrance Exam Score (MCAT, LSAT, GMAT) / UG School name. Their most important education is still ahead of them in Grad. school. So, UG is important in regard to chances of getting into Grad. Some suggested that high GPA (more important factor for some Ad. Coms) might be easier to obtain at state schools. I do not know how valid this statement is. However, I know that getting as close as possible to GPA=4.0 is crucial in gaining admission, for example, to Medical School while name of UG is secondary consideration. This type of research should be done when considering Graduate School.</p>

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<p>Yes, this. We have heard about this from parents of current students at state and elite private schools.</p>

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<p>Wow!</p>

<p>My nephew attends a CSU where kids have routinely, for years, taken classes at the local community college because they can’t get them there. Now that’s over and these kids are at a loss for how to get enough units to even graduate in 5 years. What a mess.</p>

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<p>That is not acceptable. Why is it that universities can change availibility of their classes without notice?</p>

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<p>blossom, by ‘yield’ I assume you mean the company’s desire to further interview certain students?</p>

<p>Have you previously posted about how corporations develop their opinions of schools? My kid will be geographically limited; I’m in the process of helping her consider private vrs. state, small vrs. large, and still having trouble seeing all the pitfalls. I don’t want her to waste time at a school that many employers won’t consider. Your post would suggest that bigger schools are better. The OP’s post would suggest private schools offer benefits that large publics don’t.</p>

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<p>Yield is in fact, the number of kids who get callback interviews. (and then there’s the number of offers extended, accepted, etc.) It is not related to the size of the university. I have hired for entry level technical/engineering roles where our yield has been great from U Michigan, U Missouri/Rolla (big schools) and for entry level marketing or communications roles where our yields have been fantastic from Swarthmore or Amherst. (small schools). I have never worked for a company that only recruited in one particular geography so I don’t know that I can give you much advice there.</p>

<p>The companies I have worked for develop their opinions of schools in four ways. 1- People track specific programs, develop relationships with deans and professors at certain schools, we follow SAT trends, grade inflation, etc. at a bunch of institutions. 2- We monitor past years results so we know which schools are on the uptick for us, which are flat, which are on a downward trend. 3- We track hires from different schools, so we know in general how a cohort is doing and where the anomolies are. So just for an example, if over a three year period, a group of people who all got promoted and agreed to be transferred to an overseas facility for a two year development role all came from BYU-- this would suggest that for functions or subsidiaries that value geographic mobility, second and third language fluency, etc. BYU is a strong source school and we should make sure that hiring managers and divisional level HR people understand what the school offers and why its culture is a good fit for us. Obviously, it’s not all what BYU does for the student… it’s also what the students walk in with. </p>

<p>And 4th (and the one you don’t want to hear about) our recruiting people and our senior line folks all have prejudices and biases about certain schools, and alumni relationships, etc. which helps form an opinion about where to recruit. However, we work hard to make sure that the ultimate decisions about where we send a team is based on factors 1-3 and not just because, “Mr. Bigshot went to Ohio state and he’ll be furious if his division doesn’t recruit there”.</p>

<p>It isn’t science, but at a minimum, we need some data to justfy the heavy expense of recruiting around the country and the globe. So schools which have large chunks of students interested in what we do, and year after year, the students who end up here are succesful and do well… those schools stay on the list without much tweaking. It’s always at the margins where there are controversies.</p>

<p>In general, for science and engineering roles in industry (I’m not talking academia since I’ve never recruited for a university) very small schools don’t do as well as larger schools. Comp Sci- you’re talking about UIUC at the larger end and MIT/Cal Tech at the small end. YMMV. And your kid may decide to become a vet, in which case disregard everything I’ve said!</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for the detailed reply - I appreciate it. You’ve worked for thorough companies!</p>

<p>I assume then that companies that recruit nationally fulfill their recruiting requirements in the manner you describe, and that an unsolicited resume from some small school would usually be disregarded if the company had no experience with grads from that school.</p>

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<p>There is a lot of truth in this - at least as far as medical and law school goes. As an example, a friend’s daughter recently got into medical school (on her third try). The med school admissions office told her she would have been better off going to a college where it would be easier to get a higher GPA than a ‘better’ college with lower GPA. When you are completing against students with 4.0 and high MCATs, it really doesn’t matter if your school had a better name. You still didn’t do “A+” work, and these other applicants did.</p>

<p>Also, she was told don’t bother taking a ‘pre-med’ major but rather take something you love (say, history or philosophy) and pick up the pre-req science classes as electives or in addition to your degree program.</p>

<p>Our State U honors program now guarantees admission (& merit aid) to the school’s law school if you have a certain GPA and a minimum score of the LSAT. They are about to finalize the same deal with the medical school.</p>

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<p>^Yes, my D is in combined medical program at state school in Honors. These programs are extremely hard to get in. Her program is cancelled with this year being last to admit kids into freshman class (10 spots), so she feels even more lucky. She is guarantee a spot in Medical school in her program if she maintains GPA=3.45 and gets certain MCAT. It was much better deal than her attending private college of her #1 choice. She got huge Merit scholarship there of about $28,000 / year, so money were not consideration. However, she was rejected for combined program there that had only about 15 spots for about 800 applicants. Now she is saying that she feels that her current college fits her better overall. She has couple friends at another place and has visited there before and after she started college. She is college junior. So, I strongly believe that everybody situation is very personal with a lot of variables that need to be considered before final decision to attend.</p>

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<p>Treetopleaf- depends on the school, depends on the company, and depends on the type of job. I have a colleague who recruits actuaries; some of the schools they hire from have a pretty low profile in her part of the country and I venture to guess that the general reaction is “where the heck is that college?”. But the school has a well regarded actuarial science program and so the people who get paid to hire actuaries will know about the school regardless of its size or national reputation.</p>

<p>So I wouldn’t discount a school out of hand because it’s small or has a low profile in certain parts of the country. There are lots of factors at play. Most companies are open to unsolicited resumes from schools they are unfamiliar with in hard to staff functions or if the resume looks very strong (Phi Beta Kappa, relevant internships, etc.) in other ways. I once hired a guy who had graduated from a college that virtually nobody in my group had ever heard of (and we track hundreds of colleges so it’s hard to stump us-- really, it’s hard!). But he scored number 1 on the CPA exam that year and had passed all three sections of the CFA while working fulltime and getting the hours needed for the CPA. We didn’t know his college, and we didn’t know the small regional public accounting firm he ended up at after college- but his professional credentials trumped name recognition.</p>

<p>Of course this is the exception. But even very small colleges can propel kids into high powered careers.</p>

<p>It’s worth checking to see the recruiting calendar for the colleges your kid is considering if you think heading off to the workforce right after college is your kids plan. Simply put, it’s a lot easier to land a job when recruiters come to you then when you have to launch your own search. Thousands of kids find great jobs on their own- but it’s nice when recruiters show up on campus with a dog and pony show. And for some kids, it’s the wake-up call that they don’t want to work for a big company after all!</p>

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<p>SCUAlum: I understand why you’re worried about your son having health insurance, but (not knowing the details of your situation) did you know California has a state-mandated high-deductible Blue Cross policy that costs $49/month? My son has the policy, it has a large deductible ($1000/year, I think) but pretty good catastrophic coverage. You shouldn’t have to make educational decisions based on health insurance.</p>