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I think a lot of them are, in fact, pretty interchangeable. Or, at least, they can be ranked pretty closely. Just because a kid would rather go to Harvard than Princeton doesn’t mean that he wouldn’t like Princeton and shouldn’t apply there.</p>
<p>Also, expressed interest is not very important at the most selective schools–they assume everybody is interested.</p>
<p>My D would disagree with the previous two posts. The ‘top’ schools are not interchangeable for her- they are quite different from each other. She has a strong preference for H or Y over P. She would likely choose lower-ranked Georgetown over Princeton, possibly over Stanford, definitely over Columbia. She did not like Penn or Brown or Cornell and will not apply to them (even though she concedes they are good schools for the right people- just not for her). She did not even consider MIT. </p>
<p>So sure, they are all really good schools, but individual students can and do have strong preferences. </p>
<p>I also happen to think that some of the ‘top ranked’ and ‘prestigious’ schools are not particularly strong in every department. I am sure there are plenty of individual departments in the ‘top 10’ colleges that wouldn’t rank in the top 20 departments in their particular subject.</p>
<p>Edit: But as Pizzagirl says below, all of the schools I just mentioned are in the ‘stratosphere’. As are schools like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Duke, etc.</p>
<p>cellardweller:
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<p>I agree; I think it is indeed possible for the same student to be interested in (say) Brown and Dartmouth even though there are differences in culture, lifestyle, etc. And that it’s not necessarily driven by “Ivy fever” but that these are simply 2 very excellent colleges who attract an extremely high caliber of student. </p>
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<p>I disagree with this, though. I think at a certain level you’re in the stratosphere and it doesn’t matter how stratospheric you are. Yes, Wharton in i-banking and blah-de-blah-blah, but the similarities between HYPSM and the tier you’re talking about are more than people let on.</p>
<p>Hmmm, unless things have changed dramatically in the last decade or so I always thought Dartmouth and Harvard were wildly different. Brown, wow, that’s even on another plane. Yale is somewhere between Dartmouth and Harvard holistically, Princeton I don’t know anything about, never visited and don’t know anyone who went there to visit…To me schools are so nuanced by their location and culture. Not to mention that these schools attract professors that are culturally nuanced by their own inner drives. I would agree that among the top 1-50 you can find pairings or triplets of similar schools. If the entire experience of going to college was just the classroom and the dorm room I might agree with you, but a whole lot of growth comes from interactions outside the classroom, in the community, and with the professors all of which are nuanced in different ways at different colleges.</p>
<p>Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown . . . they are “wildly different” only if your universe is limited to highly selective private research universities on the East Coast. In any more broadly defined set, they are a lot more similar than they are different. If not siblings (if not fraternal twins), then at the most distant first cousins with different wardrobe tastes.</p>
<p>This comes up a lot in discussions of the University of Chicago and Brown. In curricular approach, they are complete opposites – hard core vs. open curriculum. In the real world, there is a huge overlap between the students each university attracts, and I think 90% of the students at each would be perfectly happy at the other if they woke up one morning and happened to find themselves there. And there are waaay more tangible differences between Chicago and Brown than between Harvard and Brown.</p>
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<p>Seriously? A Brown student suddenly has to deal with the Chicago core curriculum and he/she is “perfectly happy”?</p>
<p>I don’t know if that would be true of 90% of students. Quite a few 18 year olds have a well developed sense of self and could/would self select out of specific schools. I think that comes into play for us to observe in posts from kids that have strong feelings that they are able to verbalize. Yes, there are certain kids who haven’t matured to the point where they do have a strong inner sense about what kind of environment they need or would simply go where told to go, but I doubt it’s 90% of them.</p>
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How different? The student bodies are virtually indistinguishable. They were all together in the same towns and high schools a few months earlier. By the luck of the draw some ended up at Dartmouth some at Harvard. Actually, it is very likely there was a significant overlap in the applicant pool and a number of Dartmouth students probably applied to Harvard and didn’t get in. Does that suddenly make them students that wouldn’t thrive at Harvard? Of course, not! Similarly, would the vast majority Harvard students be unhappy at Dartmouth? I don’t believe it for a second. You would have to be unbelievably arrogant not to appreciate what a school with the resources of a school like Dartmouth could offer. </p>
<p>Brown, you say? Actually, in the past few years, Brown has become the darling of the moneyed elite. If there is hint of a liberal counterculture at Brown it is certainly not more prevalent than at Yale or Princeton. </p>
<p>EDIT… I just realized JHS’ post made essentially the same point.</p>
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<p>The idea that Brown has no defined requirements is more myth than reality. I have two nieces at Brown, and they have plenty of required classes in their major. In addition, for Latin Honors you have to take some distribution requirements. So it is not like you can study anything you want at Brown and have no choice at Chicago. You may have a few more electives at Brown, but two students in the same major each at a different college will have much more in common than two students at the same college in a different major.</p>
<p>Just because someone says that Harvard and Dartmouth are different does not mean they think one is worse than the other. I did not see any arrogance in those statements. </p>
<p>I think there are plenty of kids who do not apply to Dartmouth that do apply to Harvard and vice versa. To this extent the applicant pools are different in significant ways. I know of many students who applied to only a couple of the ivies but would not dream of applying to the others. I know of no students who applied to all the ivies (except on C.C). </p>
<p>The kids at Dartmouth and Columbia are different going in and they grow in different ways during their four years on their respective campuses- one in a delightful small town and the other in a huge metropolis. How could they not?</p>
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<p>That was emphasized over and over again when we toured Brown. You <em>can</em> study anything you want at Brown (and that is a good thing). </p>
<p>And IIRC, you can study anything you want at Chicago too. The difference is just that Chicago <em>makes</em> you study certain things while Brown doesn’t. Whether that is a good thing is a matter of debate.</p>
<p>I took that ^^^ sentence to mean ) its not like you can study anything you want at Brown- translated as Brown doesn’t have distribution requirements, but they do have strict degree requirements but have restrictions at Chicago ( Chicago does have a strong core- but it isn’t like you wont have any electives)</p>
<p>Anyway- I think for purposes of OP it is immaterial if the Ivy schools are identical or disparate ( and to really shock CC parents- I know kids who were accepted to Ivies and are going some place else- for undergrad there are many choices that are superior to Ivy depending on your course of study and interest- I think some kids just wanted to see if they would be accepted- even if they didn’t really want to go there).</p>
<p>The reason why I think that the differences are irrelevant is because crap shoot schools should be added * after* your main choices.
If you want to apply a scattershot approach to choosing universities- be my guest but what will you do if you get into all of them?
You have to make a choice sometime.</p>
<p>I do not care how fing brilliant you think you are- you are not that bright if you think Princeton/Upenn/Dartmouth are the only places that you could * possibly* deign to attend.
:rolleyes:</p>
<p>There are a number of reasons why a particular student applies to many schools. When you are talking about highly selective schools, programs, financial aid, limited opportunities, it can be highly beneficial to send out a lot of apps, IF the student can handle them well while also coping with a heavy academic load senior year and pursuing some extracurricular interest as well, and still staying healthy, emotionally, psychologically and physically. Not easy to do. Looking at my kids, 6-10 apps were plenty in terms of juggling during the app season. </p>
<p>However, if someone wants to take on numerous apps, given that the schools’ part of the process is really copying and mailing once the original paperwork is assembled, that should not be an issue to the school. The counselor should advise students about the pitfalls of too many apps, but I don’t see that the work that additional apps take for the school is so burdensome. Back in my day it would have been since copies were not easily made, and each additional app involved a lot of work.</p>
<p>For those schools where each app is hand done, I can see where after a certain number, the teachers and counselors will balk at more work. That is something that would have to be addressed by the student as that is asking for a considerable commitment. A kid might find himself without teachers willing to do recs if it involves that much work.</p>
<p>cellardweller…I think you misunderstood my point about expressing interest in a college. It isn’t so much about visits, no. And yes, of course everyone who applies to schools like Harvard or of that level is “interested.” What I meant is that the student needs to demonstrate and articulate very specifically why THAT particular school FITS them and why THIS STUDENT fits that school. My own children, as well as all my advisees, craft very specific statements about this for every school that differs greatly from app to app. Yes, it is extra work. Also, on visits, they met with very specific people…professors in their area of interest, department heads, current students, heads of certain ECs or clubs and so on. Lots to relate to that was very specific. They tried to show why each school related to their selection criteria in very very very specific ways that could not be written about ANY other college on their list (if they could interchange the college name, the essay needed to be rewritten). Also, their statement of “interest” should not have been interchangeable with any other student because it was about how the student also fit the college and how they would contribute to that specific student body. So, no, it wasn’t about just visiting and signing in at the admissions office to show you made a trip to campus!!! They also did interviews with each school or alum. These all take time. Harder to do with 18 schools. A lot of time and effort went into EACH specific school. They didn’t approach it as one size fits all their apps. Did not even use the Common App. </p>
<p>I do not believe that all the Ivies or other elite schools are similar. Yes, they all provide top notch academics. They all have super duper smart, motivated, active and engaged student bodies. There is no question in my mind that one is not better than the other in this regard. But they differ a GREAT deal. There is NO way my kid would ever apply to all 8 Ivies as not every one even appealed to her selection criteria! She was not a “must have an Ivy!” kid. She had selection criteria, which definitely included “very selective, challenging, rigorous, etc.” But there are more than 8 schools with that description…way more. So, she found ones that not only fit that basic parameter but fit many other specific selection criteria for herself, and what would be a good fit for her. If you’d ask her, she’d say that Harvard was a wonderful school but it did not match her criteria. Same with Dartmouth. While admitted to Penn, it was not one of her favored schools on her list and she liked Tufts better…better fit…still as strong academically. </p>
<p>I’m a firm believer in “fit” with colleges. Brown fit my kid perfectly. And no, it is not the same as some schools people are likening it to! It’s NOT better, but it really fit my kid. She loved so many things about it and I do believe there is a certain type of atmosphere and student who is attracted to this school, though there are overlaps with other schools. Many are driven and independent. The open curriculum allows for some things that a different curriculum does not. And no, there are NOT a lot of requirements…simply the requirements for your major. Every student in class WANTS to be in that class. Every college, even among the Ivies, have different vibes. One needs to find “their place.” </p>
<p>I’m in agreement with what vicariousparent and emeraldkity have expressed. Only on CC…it is the only place where I have run into “any Ivy will do”…“let’s apply to them all plus Stanford, MIT”. I can’t imagine thinking this way and my own kids did not. Each school on their list was on it because it matched up with a personalized list of selection criteria. And yes, “highly selective” was a criteria for my kid who landed at Brown. “Ivy” was in NO WAY her selection criteria. She had a list of what she wanted in a school. It ended up that four Ivies did land on her list…those four happened to fit what she wanted. The ones that fit best were Brown and Yale. She doesn’t think these are the two best colleges, but rather these were the two that fit what she was looking for. And while she got into Cornell and Columbia for grad school, she did not apply as undergrad (did not appeal) and in the end, while tops in her grad field, she did not choose to attend either. She went with “best fit” for UG and Grad. Turns out that both times, the schools were highly selective (Brown and MIT) but that was just one aspect of picking…she could give you a list of what about each school fit HER. That is truly how she picked. It wasn’t about rounding up the top ranked schools (she had never seen the rankings…nobody talks of those where we live either) and applying to every single one in the top 15. She found schools that matched her list of what she wanted in a school. Even top schools such as Harvard, as wonderful as that school is (who could argue with that?..in fact, I even went to grad school there!), did not make her list (though she was a contender), because it was not a best fit. For my other D, I realize most on this forum are not familiar with the top BFA in MT programs but ONE of them is CCM…was not a good fit with what my D wanted and while she applied to many top programs, she did not apply to that one, even though it is highly regarded. She landed at another very well regarded one, NYU/Tisch, which was a perfect fit for her. I would never say it is the best BFA program in the land but it was the best one for her, while still being highly selective and one of the so called “top ones.” But not any “top one” would do. It had to FIT.</p>
<p>My younger son likes both U. of Chicago and Brown. They are both in cities, they both have campuses. He thinks the Chicago core is full of stuff he ought to take, and probably would choose to take at Brown, and he knows that Brown’s majors have requirements so it’s not as though he can just take anything at all he wants to. Both places take academics seriously. He’s interested in history and international relations which really you can find just about anywhere.</p>
<p>I don’t know of any kids who applied to all the Ivies, but I do understand how different schools can appeal to the same kid.</p>
<p>I agree that different schools can appeal to the same kid. </p>
<p>I just don’t think that those who apply to all 8 Ivies plus Stanford and MIT are picking each one due to a good fit. It comes across as “apply to every top school in the country with the hopes that one or more will open its doors to you and if it takes 18 attempts at the top 18 in the rankings, so be it.”</p>
<p>Well, my son didn’t want to go to Dartmouth or Cornell because of the location, but he was genuinely interested in Columbia and Brown, as well as Chicago.
By the way, one impression I got at Brown is that although they are very proud of the freedom of their curriculum, if you look at what students actually take, it’s probably not all that different from students at schools with more distributional requirements.</p>
<p>Hunt, that is very true at Brown! While students DO have the freedom to take all their courses in one area if they feel like it, most naturally take a breadth of courses, but at their own choice.</p>
<p>I also get the impression that most of them don’t take many courses pass-fail, either. (At the info session we went to, the professor let the student presenter describe all these freedoms, and then he made her admit that she had actually done pretty much what students elsewhere were doing.)</p>
<p>^^That is also quite true. I think my D had one course that she was required to have as P/F…Intro to Engineering. But she did opt to do one course in art as P/F because of her confidence level in art and that is the beauty of how Brown has that policy. They want you to try things and not worry so much about the grade. The grades are secondary to the learning. My D did opt to take grades for everything else though and that is pretty typical at Brown, I believe. Brown doesn’t have a GPA. But she does have grades for everything on her transcript and she got into a bunch of the top grad programs in her field. Brown grads do well in grad school admissions even with open curriculum and with the grading options and the no GPA on transcript too. </p>
<p>Brown is not for all people but it is a very good fit for someone who wants to guide their own learning…design it, if you will. Lots of room for independent studies too. It is a good place for a self directed learner. Outsiders tend to think that since the courses are not required (except in the major) or that grades are not even required (that’s an option you can elect), that it is not rigorous or serious. To the contrary, it is very rigorous and serious. Students choose rigorous courses and usually a breadth of them. They want to learn for learning’s sake and not only for the grade. The grades are not paramount. They don’t wait for others to tell them what to study. They are pretty independent and find ways to craft the education and learning opportunities that they seek. </p>
<p>That is why I maintain that even though all the Ivies and other elite colleges are equal in terms of very strong academics and strong student bodies, they differ in many ways. Finding the one that fits is important, in my view. One can get a great education at any of them, of course. I just know that my own kid fit Brown and Brown fit her. There are many ways I can think of that, for example, Dartmouth would not be a good fit for her, even though we feel highly about the school.</p>