<p>My son received his nomination and appointment to USAFA, which is fantastic. But, he also has a nom to USNA, but hasn't heard yet on the appointment. Let's just say he does not earn an appointment to USNA; will he get a letter which says something like "Thank you for your interest, but..."? </p>
<p>Also, is there a wait-list, similar to civilian colleges? </p>
<p>Just thinking ahead (and hoping for a big envelope from USNA, too!)</p>
<p>Yes - if rejected - he will get a letter - eventually. They start going out soon and will go out until into April.</p>
<p>Wait-list - sort of. USNA continues to make appointments until the class is full. That means a very few may receive an appointment well into June.</p>
<p>For instance - say the academy ranks your son #2 on the slate he submits. Candidate #1 is offered an appointment. He hangs onto that appointment hoping everynight for an appointment to West Point. He finally gets one in May and notifies USNA that he is indeed turning down the appointment. USNA may then in turn appoint #2 candidate on the MOC's list - your son!</p>
<p>Think of it as a big chess board - the pieces continually move about until the class is full and/or I-day comes.</p>
<p>There was an official wait list last year for USNA. But I didn't hear of anyone who got the packet from that list.</p>
<p>here was an appointment for a student in our area hat came about 5 days before IDay.</p>
<p>fencer...I may be confused (too many threads to remember), but wasn't your s recruited an offered an LOA and a nom?</p>
<p>I thought if you have an LOA and a nom it was an automatic appt?</p>
<p>The way it was explained to us, was that you could hear from the SA as late as May/June...the situation they posed was your candidate is no.7 on the slate, candidate has 3 noms. </p>
<pre><code> Nom 1 gets pres.
Nom 2 gets Sen A, for multiple SAs, eventually choses a different SA
Nom 3 now gets Sen A
Nom 4 gets Sen B
Nom 5 gets LOA and not charged to MOCs
Nom 6 gets Sen B for 2nd SA, and accepts removes him from the list
Nom 7 gets MOC appt.
</code></pre>
<p>Nobody jump on me, I understand that some states do not overlap noms...in our state they do, so you could be going up against the same person in ea. category, add in pres. and other ways they can appt with a nom, it could take a long time b4 they can find the pigeon hole to place the candidate</p>
<p>Not jumping - I understand this is confusing......
not sure what you mean "overlap" nominations. Each member of congress submits a slate of 10 names. It is up to each MOC to select the names.
If you mean that your representative waits to makes sure his candidates are not also nominated by a senator - that can happen. </p>
<p>But - the lists are presented as independent lists. Let's say - cand A is top dog in the reps district and also has a senator nom. Rep doesn't nominate him although he clearly would win the district. He is presented on the Senator's slate and if he comes in say #5 he could be out of luck. He would have to get in from the National pool. This illustration shows that senator nominations are not more "valuable" than a representative nom.</p>
<p>Also - LOA's who "win" the top slot on a slate of candidates do have their nomination charged to that MOC.</p>
<p>I am sure if I am mistaken on any of these points it will be duly noted and I will be corrected - ;)</p>
<p>What I meant by overlap, some state MOC's meet before to agree on their list b4 announcing their nom(TN comes to mind)...some state Sen.s meet to check their list (CO), some states the Senators and Congress do not meet at all and do it independently (NC).</p>
<p>My illustration was never meant to make a Senator the top dog, I just placed it that way.</p>
<p>I also understand the list is independent, but if you come from our state, where you can get 3 noms b/c the MOCs do not meet, whereas TN MOCS meet, you MAY have more of a chance. I know that CO also is like TN, where the Sen. meet, but not the Congressional (parents were told that by them at the interview)</p>
<p>Thus, in 3 states there are 3 different methods of how nominations are selected</p>
<p>I never meant to say one nom is more "valuable" it was meant to illustrate how the process worked. Feel free to inject Rep for Sen A...etc.</p>
<p>My pt was the nom is the important part and if the SA wants you there are ways they can offer an appt.</p>
<p>Finally, my example was using someone with 3 NOMS, hence they are on every list, adding in someone who has a Presidential.
You are following a pattern of TN/CO
[quote]
A is top dog in the reps district and also has a senator nom. Rep doesn't nominate him although he clearly would win the district. He is presented on the Senator's slate and if he comes in say #5 he could be out of luck. He would have to get in from the National pool.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>OK right - some candidates do get nominations from multiple MOC's. This isn't so much up to the "state" as it is the congressional district.
In other words - even if the Senators agreed not to duplicate names on the list the Rep is not held to that. The Rep can pick whomever he/she chooses.
But - you are correct in that there is no "standard" . Some states the Sr Senator picks names first and then the Jr Senator picks names and in some states the senators agree to geographically divide the state. This is why some kids only interview with one Senator. I think Va does this.</p>
<p>Your scenario still confuses me though. Nom 5 - if picked even with an LOA would have his appt charged to the MOC.<br>
The appt won't be charged if the LOA is #2 and #1 accepts the appointment.
Remember if the list presented is "competitive" the academy is required by federal law to use the WCS to appoint the top candidate. If there is one candidate on the slate with an LOA most of the time that candidate will winthe appointment and it will be charged to the MOC.</p>
<p>You are correct in that the academies essentially go down the list of 10 nominees. Reasons to move down the list include candidates who are not qualified, don't qualify medically or physically, reject the appointment.</p>
<p>I agree
[quote]
some candidates do get nominations from multiple MOC's
[/quote]
our DS has 3 noms, 1 from ea. source</p>
<p>I also agree that it is hard for parents to understand that 1 candidate received 3 and another only received 1. It is reflective with the state they come from and which acad they are applying to. Also remember the WCS has an effect. Our Sen. sends the list in alphabetically with no principal, in other words, your score is going to help for the appt.
Now add in a candidate who is applying to multiple SAs and the picture becomes even more blurred.</p>
<p>I was just trying to make the point that the nom is the most important aspect...can't go without 1 and that you may have to wait a while to find out, but keep believing</p>
<p>AS far as LOA, I am not going to delve into it further, b/c it becomes even more confusing with how it is charged (i.e. LOA with nom, but source gave principal to someone else)</p>
<p>You also took the list as competitive, our state is not, again it is causing blurred vision.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Sen Dole's website implies competitive, Sen Burr's definitely states competitive. Most representatives are competitive. You, yourself once stated on this forum that both Senators were competitive. Bad gouge is disasterous to those in the application process.</p>
<p>USNA69,</p>
<p>I know what I stated, I have my DS's letters (not a website), if I did not explain it properly than it is my bad (I did state very clearly in an earlier post that Dole does ALPHABETICAL). I am not going into Burr's nom letter or our Cong.(suffice it to say Burr does not rack and stack---nom letter is in my home)</p>
<p>My mention of competitive was regarding the MOCs noms (in NC you can have 3 noms, thus, you can be competing on 3 lists), in other states you may only have 1 nom b/c the sources meet and select their lists jointly.</p>
<p>I am now done with this, if you feel the need to continue, have at it. I am sure you have excellent experience that will help many candidates and applicants.</p>
<p>PIMA</p>
<p>
An ALPHABETICAL list would, by definition, be a competitive list.</p>
<p>Pima - relax. You are confusing - I was confused. The academy uses the terminology "COMPETITIVE" to denote how the particular slate is presented.
If a MOC tells you that they submit the slate alphabetical - then what they mean is it is competitive.</p>
<p>If your son has 3 MOC nominations then he is competing on 3 different slates for an appointment. Each MOC picks the method. One may pick "competitive" the other may pick "principle with competing alternates" and the other may pick "principle with numbered alternates".</p>
<p>I too am confused by your statement that USNA69 quoted.<br>
In states where you the MOC's "get together" this really is dependent on the individual reps and senators. No one in the state decides. If two senator "get together" they cannot force any one congressman to do the same. Each individual MOC decides how they are going to pick their slate of nominees.
In some states the senators split the state geographically - so there is not a duplication of names. I think Va does this.</p>
<p>In any case - the nomination process is confusing and complicated. To simplify it - Look at it as the legal authority for the academy to appoint you.
Once you have that nomination it is really up to the academy - if you don't get appointed as top dog on the slate then you will come up through the pool of ranked candidates if you are ranked high enough.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I also understand the list is independent, but if you come from our state, where you can get 3 noms b/c the MOCs do not meet, whereas TN MOCS meet, you MAY have more of a chance. I know that CO also is like TN, where the Sen. meet, but not the Congressional (parents were told that by them at the interview)</p>
<p>Thus, in 3 states there are 3 different methods of how nominations are selected
[/quote]
</p>
<p>yes if you compete on 3 different slates you MAY have more of a chance but there is still going to only be ONE appointment per slate. If you are #10 on each slate you still may not have much of a chance and will compete in the national pool.
In a really competitive area there might be a couple of appointments offered from one slate because they were so highly qualfied they rose to the top of the pool.
The bottom line is the academy's goal is to form the best possible class - working within the federal law regarding nominations.</p>
<p>I think in 1 state you can find 3 different ways of MOC's forming their slate. Here in PA - some congressmen interview early and announce before the senator's and others wait to see if you were nominated by a senator. I think in VA the Senators divide the state geographically so there is no overlap.
It is up to the individual MOC and this is one thing that is out of the candidates control.</p>
<p>bullet: you are correct - DS does have an LOA, Nom & Apptment to USAFA. But he only has nom to USNA. I fully expect him to get the appointment there... just wondering what would happen if he didn't.</p>
<p>Geez, this is such a confusing system. And it seems so "cloak and dagger, smoke and mirrors."</p>
<p>Does he want USNA more than AFA? If not "BE HAPPY" what were those lyrics again?</p>
<p>I remember now DON'T WORRY...BE HAPPY</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I'm not sure why you are confused about this. </p>
<p>He has an appointment to USAFA, so he can go there if he wishes.</p>
<p>If he doesn't get an appointment to USNA he won't be going there, period.</p>
<p>Wouldn't he then go to the USAFA? :confused:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think there is an attempt on this thread to make a mountain out of a molehill. JAM is correct. Let me attempt to present it another way. If we assume 1.25 appointments per representative, from the representatives, President, SecNav, etc. excluding the Senators, we have a possibility of over 6000 nominations for the 1200 available seats. Most of the nominations will go unused due to not enough qualified candidates to meet the slates. So a nomination for a qualified candidate, in all but the most competitive areas, is not such a big deal. The average is that the Academy may use two or so of each Representative’s list of ten.</p>
<p>As JAM stated, MOCs may submit a competitive list, a principal with competitive alternates, or a principal with numbered alternates. The vast majority, around 75% choose competitive, and allow the Academy to select the best qualified candidate. What does this mean? First off, to ensure selection, one has to break out at the top of a list. By far, the easiest one to break out on is the Representative’s. That should be the goal of all candidates. Senatorial nominations are just icing on the cake. Very seldom do they help the candidate at all and they merely provide the admissions folks with slightly more flexibility. Do some state’s Senators get together or divide the state geographically to ensure independent slates? Probably. Does this extend to Senators and Representatives getting together to provide slates that are nonduplicative. No way. If they did, it would be idiotic and a true indication that they do not understand the system. No matter how the Senator presents his list, only the primary candidate will receive a guaranteed nomination. And, due to DodMERB, the candidate declining the appointment, among other factors, he will not know which candidate on the list that is the primary candidate. This will leave the other 9 candidates with ‘alternate’ nominations forced to survive in the national pool. If one or more of these were a candidate who could possibly have broken out on top on his Representative’s slate, the results could prove disastrous. A Representative is accountable to the people in his district and to turn them over to a possible alternate on the Senator’s list is unacceptable.</p>
<p>If the system works correctly, a Senatorial appointment will simply allow that same candidate on a responsible Representative’s list to be replaced with the second most qualified.</p>
<p>Approximately 80% of the midshipmen currently at USNA only applied to one SA. I assume the others are similar. (deleted joke about what mids and woops have in common-the new more respectful me in action) Therefore, multiple nominations are really not a big deal.</p>
<p>If the primary candidate on any slate is an LOA, it will count against that MOC’s quota. As JAM stated above, MOCs who intentionally eliminate these individuals from their slates are not doing anyone a favor and the results might prove disastrous. </p>
<p>Apply for the VP. The admissions people have a lot of leeway with this one and it is used to alleviate situations such as the one I mentioned immediately above where the MOC did not grant a nomination to an LOA.</p>
<p>Don’t use historical data as to how a MOC submits their slate. Some allow their nomination board, on a case-by-case basis, to choose the method to submit the list. Some MOC’s allow part-time regional office workers to manage the SA nominations and they too may be confused about proper terminology and state to the candidate something other than factual information.</p>
<p>Get your local Representative’s nomination. Apply to all the others to which you are eligible because they tell you to. However, under most situations, it is to benefit them, not you. As JAM stated, with very few exceptions offers will be made to the 1500 or so most qualified candidates.</p>
<p>Fencersmom, Daughter also got early appointment(DEC) with USAFA . Was triple Q'd at USNA.But she did not get in. We recieved a letter in mid April. Her choice was to go to USAFA ( was leaning that way anyway). She is very happy with her choice and feels everything happens for a reason. She is now interested in being a pilot. Didn't want that at first. So you just really don't know what is going to happen with each academy. My husband is an alum of USNA and his brother is also. So nothing is set in stone as they say. Good Luck to your son. Our other daughter has an apoointment also to USAFA ( OCT) and we just found out last week she was triple Q'd at USNA also. So here is hoping for daughter # two.</p>
<p>I seem to have started a firestorm here! </p>
<p>I think my main question was... what happens if you have a nomination but don't get the appointment? Is there a letter, an email, a postcard? That's all. </p>
<p>But, I do appreciate reading all these posts, and thank all of you for your input.</p>