<p>We have recently started the college search for our son, who is a junior. He's a talented athlete, a musician and a serious student, and he has no interest in drinking or drugging. I heard from a couple of college kids about the challenges of "fitting in" when you don't drink. What do you think is the best way to ferret out how accepting a particular campus culture is of students who don't party?</p>
<p>I think ur son would really like the Univ of Chicago, a phenomenal school.</p>
<p>Princeton allows students to make a choice to live in substance free housing. The school is also making a major push to strengthen its music program. The school has a lot of kids that party and some that don't and they seem to co-exist with no problem.</p>
<p>A student's perspective -</p>
<p>I enjoy parties, but not drinking at all. The most powerful weapon is confidence in such situations. Being a prude is hardly the road towards popularity, but if your son is able to be a fun and engaging person without alcohol, he'll do fine no matter what school he goes to. </p>
<p>Yet</p>
<p>Drinking, whether enjoyable or not, is something that may be necessary sooner or later in a social context. Refusing a drink can be like refusing friendship, acceptance, honesty. Same with a smoke, but less so nowadays. This is especially true if your friend pursues a business career. </p>
<p>Again, partying is not drinking. The two are separate things. You and your son's decision should not revolve around how much fun the students on campus have. People will drink everywhere, and it is in his complete control what he decides to do for himself.</p>
<p>Gluck and happy new yr!</p>
<p>"Drinking, whether enjoyable or not, is something that may be necessary sooner or later in a social context. Refusing a drink can be like refusing friendship, acceptance, honesty. "</p>
<p>That can't possibley be true</p>
<p>Masha,</p>
<p>"Drinking, whether enjoyable or not, is something that may be necessary sooner or later in a social context. Refusing a drink can be like refusing friendship, acceptance, honesty. "</p>
<p>OMG - what a very misguided remark. I think you should think seriously about what you stated. Caving into peer pressure is not necessary for establishing friendships - at least the RIGHT friendships!! Are you already in college? Or is this speculation on your part?</p>
<p>that was directed at "TropicalTriceps"</p>
<p>Peer pressure?</p>
<p>I'm referring to drinking in the professional world, say, as an opener to a dinner meeting. It's obviously not necessary or inevitable. It's not the end of the world either though.</p>
<p>Golf, technical jargon, the dress code. They aren't all that much different. Love or hate it, establishing relationships with people is important. There are friends, but there are also necessary acquaintances. People need to network. </p>
<p>Obviously drinking to make friends isn't right. Please don't take offense as I didn't mean that. I re-read what I wrote and can see now that it wasn't made clear, and that is my fault. I hope you do understand what I'm trying to get at though.</p>
<p>Don't worry- he WILL find people who don't drink but will party with. People usually come to parties in groups so he'll be arond his non-drinking friends. Additionally, if he doesn't want to drink, he can elect himself as the sober friend for the night- keeping an eye out for his friends. </p>
<p>As others have said- if he's a good conversationlist and partyer, there's no need for alochol to mix in. People don't look into each other's glasses while talking... So he can just carry around an empty cup with a couple drops of alochol....</p>
<p>There are plenty of schools where the two groups co-exist well- it's a matter of finding out what other activities are going on on weekend nights to keep non-drinkers busy.</p>
<p>MLM, I think it is less of an issue than you would expect. At large schools there is always a critical mass of kids who do (or don't do) just about anything and they will find each other. At smaller schools, kids who don't drink or drug are common phenomena, especially among athletes. Urging someone to partake if s/he isn't interested, would go against the PC grain. </p>
<p>Partying -- or socializing -- is a separate and different issue from drinking and/or drugging. I think the culture at some schools is more extroverted than others and the impact of a party-driven social scene may be a factor in selection; however, using alcohol or drugs is not a prerequisite to joining in. </p>
<p>The best way to "ferret out" the cultural ambience of any school is to overnight or talk to students who actually attend the colleges of interest. As tickle says, find out what kids really do on weekends. I also think that it's important to keep an open and investigative mind about what constitutes a drinking/drugging/party school. Reputations and stereotypes are by definition often exaggerated and although understanding the culture and ambience is essential to evaluating personal fit, often the postive aspects of a school with a "party" reputation can overrule the potential PERCEIVED negatives. The risk of being adversely affected by other students' drinking or drugging at an otherwise good fit school is low and the fear of being pressured into unwanted behavior (again this could be just about anything, not necessarily alcohol or drugs) is severely over stated. </p>
<p>I think the country (and the world) is going in the opposite direction from what Tropical Triceps describes. As the population ages I see more and more prominent people who are abstainers. The Chairman of the Fortune 500 company that I'm associated with is a non-drinker and it sure hasn't hurt his upward mobility. I am seeing a non-drinking trend in politics (e.g. the POTUS), Hollywood, business, sports and often find that I'm seldom the only person at the table who opts for sparking water. (Now if I could just get them to stop automatically tossing in the lime.)</p>
<p>"Drinking, whether enjoyable or not, is something that may be necessary sooner or later in a social context. Refusing a drink can be like refusing friendship, acceptance, honesty. Same with a smoke, but less so nowadays. This is especially true if your friend pursues a business career."</p>
<p>This is SO not true.</p>
<p>Also remember, some kids don't drink in HS and decide to drink in college. </p>
<p>It is great to be able to have a lot of fun in life without needing any substances to do so. Most kids who can get through high school as non-drinkers have nailed this ability and will have it forever, whether or not they ultimately decide to drink a bit.</p>
<p>My D was a non-drinker in HS, but has done some drinking in college. She's not that excited by it but not repelled either. </p>
<p>BTW, according to my D who is an athlete: the athletes may avoid pre-game nights, but otherwise drink as much as anyone-- though they do seem to smoke less.</p>
<p>I have heard it suggested that overnighting on a Thursday is a good "detective" technique - schools where the predominant culture has Thursday as a weekend night vs a school night are theoretically more enmeshed in a drinking culture.</p>
<p>My own S is another example of what SBmom cites - not a drinker in hs, but does drink in college. However, he is and sees himself as a student. While he might not relish 9 am classes, he is there and ready. Drinking does not override his raison d'etre for being at school. I do think, from all that has been said on this forum (and you can search the many threads on this topic) and from what I have observed, that you will find drinking on all but a handful of schools. However, you will find a range of how predominant a drinking culture is, and how easy it is to find a comfortable critical mass of non-drinkers. Reading here, reading school newspapers and visiting are all good tools.</p>
<p>And... I must weigh in with elphaba, masha, xymom and others with a firm contradiction of TropicalTriceps assertions re the necessity of drinking. I am a Stanford MBA and have held executive positions in a variety of businesses and fields. Drinking has NEVER been necessary. An "in your face" I-don't-drink-so-I-am-superior attitude would be a hindrance to business success, big time.</p>
<p>Short of that, drinkers (within reason) and non-drinkers alike are welcome and successful in business, on the golf course, networking....</p>
<p>I believe TropicalTriceps him (her?)self tried to clarify the original mis-guided post.</p>
<p>There is drinking at virtually all colleges. However, there is significant variation among schools in the ratios of non-drinkers to moderate drinkers to heavy drinkers. These differences can have a huge impact on the "feel" of the campus, especially to a non-drinker or moderate drinker.</p>
<p>Some things I would do to investigate the drinking scene at a particular school:</p>
<p>a) Overnight on a Thurs.</p>
<p>b) Search the archives of the student newspaper for terms such as "alcohol poisoning", "hospitalization", or "binge drinking". If you find substantial concern over alcohol poisoning hospitalizations, you can be pretty sure the college has a heavy drinking culture.</p>
<p>c) Attempt to find references to the college's "binge drinking" rate.</p>
<p>d) Look up the percentage of male students who belong to fraternities (the epicenter of heavy drinking).</p>
<p>Thank you to Momrath, SBMom, and JMMom for clearly articulating what I was trying to convey. Being an occasionally rebellious son myself, some of my feelings about the overprotective mother figure had rubbed off in this thread. For this reason, my post may have come off as offensive and poorly worded. </p>
<p>Obviously you are all tremendously dedicated towards your children, and that is the most we can ask for. Thank you for your support and guidance. I just didn't want Marylandmother to make drinking such a huge priority. </p>
<p>I do need to make a stand on one thing, however. Times are changing but the male and female are still regulated by different social norms. </p>
<p>It is MUCH more acceptable for a female to refuse a drink. Many fields out there are still dominated by men, and having lived all my life within a social sphere that is such, I can attest to the importance of social drinking where it is relevant. </p>
<p>Please do not write me off. We live quite different lives but it is important to be all-comprehensive about some things. Our experiences our different, but that does not mean our conclusions are strictly right or wrong.</p>
<p>interesteddad,</p>
<p>the binge drinking rate is extremely poor in determining the drinking culture of a school. While it has no set definition, a common definition is 5 (4 for a girl) or more drinks on an "occasion" - which could be an entire day. By that definition, if you drink 5 beers while watching a packed saturday or sunday of football, you're a binge drinker. And I wouldn't call that "partying." If thats the case, then I would venture to say that even the most tame of schools would have a high binge drinking percentage. </p>
<p>Now, if there was a statistic on how many of the kids go out to drink for the sole purposes of getting drunk - then that would be a good way of determining a social setting.</p>
<p>i agree with tropicaltriceps in the sense that if you're in a drinking crowd and you refuse a drink, (i mean around kids who drink all the time) it definitely can hurt a friendship. in my experience, they think you're judging them for doing something they know is wrong (15 shots of vodka cant be terribly healthy..) and they perceive you as uptight.
i'm mainly talking about people i know at nyu, because it's super easy to be a serious drinker in new york, but it may not be the same at rural schools where there's little else to do but fewer places to get it.
but there are nondrinkers at every school, more and more so, and obviously your son doesnt have to hang out with the drinkers especially if he feels uncomfortable. i agree with one dad's suggestions of doing an overnight on thursday; at my school this is often the biggest party night (lots of bars have cheap drinks and no cover). you can also check out the princeton review's lists of schools that are most sober and most not - these aren't entirely reliable, and i'm sure you already knew brigham young wouldnt have alcoholics, but you can get a sense for some schools.</p>
<p>
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the binge drinking rate is extremely poor in determining the drinking culture of a school
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<p>Actually, it's the best available statistical measure because it is a question on virtually every survey administered by colleges to their students using an universally recognized measure in government alcohol research. Thus, it is a statistic that allows you to compare the frequency of heavy drinking. A college in the "high" range on the binge drinking surveys will "feel" very, very different than a college on the "low" end of the range.</p>
<p>but that still doesn't address the issue that jags raised -- the definition that is commonly used doesn't make any sense. Binge drinking, to the average guy on the street, means drinking to get drunk. It doesn't mean having 5 drinks in any event (regardless of the length of the event). On New Years Eve I went to a family members house and had a glass of champagne, 2 glasses or red wine with dinner, and two beers earlier in the day while watching football. So I had 5 drinks over the course of one "event" that lasted about 9-10 hours. That's simply not binge drinking, and only a very sloppy researcher would claim that it is.</p>
<p>D doesn't party, drink or smoke, yet she is very happy at Amherst. That's not to say she didn't have a little wine at Christmas Eve dinner. It has never been forbidden, but she hates how people act when they drink, so she has made the choice not to imbide at all. Hates the taste of beer. She has made friends, and chose to live on the all female sub free floor. She has been invited to parties, but has politely turned down the invitations. They still ask. Instead, she has alternative parties in her dorm - Trivial Pursuit or movie nights. No one has made any negative comments, and she has lots of friends. The nice thing is that most colleges have sub free, where those kids can meet like-minded kids. It doesn't take long for kids to find other kids who think the way they do.</p>